How much lead and follow can be taught in a standard weekday class?

[Magic Hans]

Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!

Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.

[Please feel free to disagree - with reasons]

I've been in 'standard' weekday classes where certain aspects of lead and follow have been presented and taught, and wonder at how effective this is.

I fully accept that 99% if not 100% of teachers have the best of intentions. However, in some classes, I have heard the teacher calling out "pull" and "push" at various times in the routine, in order to give the leader a cue as to how he is supposed to be leading, and other classes teachers talking about tension, and being able to feel a partner's tension.

Playing Devil's Advocate, in the first instance, I have a worrying image of the leader treating their follower like a rag doll; in the second, both lead and follow leaning back against eachother for every step back, resulting in joint damage to both.

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone? What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital? If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?

.... I'll keep quiet for a bit now!!

Please discuss!

Ian

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone?

Without a partner? The paths the hands(/lead) take and the positions the bodys should be in can be taught, but the level of guidance and the forces that need to be applied to actually make this a reality need a partner. (And to learn properly, need several partners of varying ability/resistance/flaws)

Amar mentioned that this was the way that he learned: practiced the movements and positioning without a partner, then worked out how to do it with one. Personally I work the other way round and work out how to get the follower to go where I want before working out where I should be... perhaps one of the multitude of reasons that he's such a better dancer.

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?

The teaching model lays down the basics: you can pick up on these basics however you want to - they are presented in such a way that either style of learning works.
What you need to do is get the followers following, then the leads have to lead. The only way to do this {I have seen that works} is to introduce some random element that the leads have to decide on their own:
- hold at one count untill the lead is ready to continue.
- Don't finish with a 'return and step back': encourage a different way to return to the starting spots (men spin, shoulder slide, step accross being the most obvious
- on a repetative element (like the sway steps in a 'slo comb' or 'side-to-side' "bumps" in the move of the same name), repeat untill board.

What I try to do is lead the beginner moves as smoothly as I can so that each count of the move just happens to coincide with the position you should be in at that point - instead of moving A and B and C. it's A through B to C. This forces the follower to actually move with me rather than the necessary stacatto movements from the stage.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!

Yes. The only way to dance without lead and follow in freestyle I can think of is for both of you to do the moves by rote and follow the same order of moves taught in the class. I suppose this could also work for dancing a set piece.

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.

Hmm interesting. I don’t know. So are you saying women who are more inclined to lead are more likely to backlead?

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Playing Devil's Advocate, in the first instance, I have a worrying image of the leader treating their follower like a rag doll; in the second, both lead and follow leaning back against eachother for every step back, resulting in joint damage to both.

Seems plausible. “now put your hands on their chest” has made me do a double take when I haven’t been playing attention . (And I’m not the only one. Why do they call this out in the beginners class when women are paired up together? )

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone?

To a limited degree. I use silk hankerchiefs. It’s a clear way to see how smooth and fluid your movements are and where the clunky bits are. I’ve also used wooden staffs and a giant teddy bear. You can also to an extent practice leading yourself. Ultimately though, like many things, it’s much better with a good woman .

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital?

Connection , fluidity.

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?

The physical movements. Timing, musicality. Actually most stuff. It’s just that you’re handicapping yourself if you don’t have those two elements

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?

Not terribly. In my experience ladies are noticeably better when they haven’t done Ceroc for a while and have forgotten the moves. Their body still remembers how to follow.

Oh and to Gadget’s comments

Take care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Amar mentioned that this was the way that he learned: practiced the movements and positioning without a partner, then worked out how to do it with one. Personally I work the other way round and work out how to get the follower to go where I want before working out where I should be... perhaps one of the multitude of reasons that he's such a better dancer.

I understood something different from what Amir said, which sort-of matches my own behaviour – but instead of putting words in his mouth, I'll describe what works for me.

When I'm learning a complex move in class, I need to know what both my partner and I should be doing before I can fully lead my partner through the whole move.

So, if we're doing a particularly tricky move and I just can't get it and nor can any of my partners – I will be relying on them to step through the move "right" mostly without my lead – then we're in trouble. Even if I am doing the move right, if the girl can't then I end up confused. But what tends to happen is that either it eventually clicks with me what we should both be doing, or more often I end up with a partner who knows what she's supposed to be doing and it makes it easier at that point for me to know that my movements are rights, or to get them right.

Once both my partner and myself are able to do the move, then I am going to be able to concentrate on leading it properly. I should then be able to lead subsequent partners through the move even if they don't know what they are supposed to be doing.

So I learn the move first, then I learn how to lead it. I don't think I could do either without a partner – at least not the more complex moves.

I remember an instance where with the right partner I'd just figured out how a move is supposed to work. She said something like "you're doing the move right, but you're not leading me." I replied "well I've only just got it, now let's see if I can lead it..." ... step, step, step, ... "That's better!"

I don't know if any of this answers the original question.

[David Bailey]

Can't believe I missed this...

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!

In fact I'd strengthen it to say " Lead and follow ability is fundamental to any partner dancing activity, at any level, at any time."

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.

Err.... what's your premise based on? Detailed psychological studies? 'Coz much as I like SCD, I wouldn't call it a thorough piece of scientific research.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't take gender entirely out of the lead-follow debate...

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone? What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital? If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?

I've learnt more about lead-and-follow in 8 Argentinian Tango classes than in any 80 MJ classes I can name. So yes, I think it can be taught "mechanically", IMO.

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this?

Diabolically bad. Possibly even worse-than-useless at some times. But that's not what the Ceroc model is about - it's about raising beginner retention levels by making partner dancing look and feel easy to learn.

Anything that says "Actually, it's quite difficult, and there's a lot more to it..." is contrary to that model, as it could put beginners off.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

In fact I'd strengthen it to say " Lead and follow ability is fundamental to any partner dancing activity, at any level, at any time."

Its the main thing that I look for now in any dance classes of any sort - do they show the moves and how to do them or do they show the moves and how to lead and follow them. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I've learnt more about lead-and-follow in 8 Argentinian Tango classes than in any 80 MJ classes I can name. So yes, I think it can be taught "mechanically", IMO.

Oh, this is encouraging. I'm going to start doing Argentinian Tango classes in January, good to know it might help improve my following in general.

[Trish]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading

Err.... what's your premise based on? Detailed psychological studies? 'Coz much as I like SCD, I wouldn't call it a thorough piece of scientific research.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't take gender entirely out of the lead-follow debate...

I agree with Magic Hans on this one - some men are better followers than they are leaders, some women are better leaders than they are followers - If I knew anything about Sociology/Psychology I would go away and study it - could be facinating. My guess is it's to do with personality types or homone levels or something. I would say it often goes with gender, but some women have more masculine brains, and some men more feminine. And no, I haven't really got much evidence, but I have danced lead and follow with a variety of men and women. I don't mean anything offensive by this BWT, if I did I'd be saying I was masculine, which I'm not particularly .

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this?

Got to agree with David on this one, I also think it's generally pretty bad. But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher? Most average Ceroc dancers are not interested in listening, or really interested in technique, only in learning more moves to wrestle their way into. There - feel free to flame me!! I would think the people on this forum however are interested in technique, or why are they reading about it for hours?!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Trish

But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher?

Yes.
The teacher's job is to pitch the lesson at the level of the class. If the teacher wants to introduce good technique as well as the fun and easy to pick up aspects, then they have to pitch it right.
What tends to happen is that the teaches stands and talks and talks while the class get restless. Talk, demo, talk some more, demo, talk demo....etc. you need to show the class what you are doing and get them involved - avoid takling too long about this, that and the next.
If it needs further explanation then give it to the class in peicemeal format: "Next time, we are going to do it while..."

{all IMHO of course}

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gadget

What tends to happen is that the teaches stands and talks and talks while the class get restless.

This is largely because it's so pointless. I know the words that can describe a good lead. That's easy. The difficult part is making my actions resemble those words. For me, at least, that means exercises rather than lectures.

[Magic Hans]

I generally agree with the consensus that, certainly for effective freestyle dancing, lead/follow ability is fundamental. I understand that classic type sequence dancing does not rely on lead/follow, and I have a memory of dancing jive with one lady who only ever jived with her partner. It was almost impossible to lead, since she seemed to be used to back-leading her partner.

Further, the little AT that I've done has focussed far more on lead/follow than moves. In fact the first lesson had little more than walk, rock and side-together-side steps, simply using the music as a framework for this. That manner of subtle lead is, I believe, an incredibly useful experience for any sort of lead/follow freestyle dance.

Personally I don't believe that any significant aspect of lead/follow can be learned purely mechanically. It is fundamentally a skill involving feel and feedback. Specific moves, of course, are the mechanical counterpart of this.

The tenet of this thread really comes from my own experience. Having started Salsa-ing in 94 (fairly on and off) it took me little short of 5 years to become a comfortable lead. [Probably about 200-300 hours] And yet, although I have had no real practice, I am fairly comfortable at following. I believe that I am a more natural follow than lead .... hence an extended learning curve.

It seems a shame to me that leading (in particular) is not effectively focussed on more. The scene is generally short of men, and those (like myself) who are not natural leads, are more likely to give up, since the learning curve for us is that much steeper, requiring that much more effort and persistence.

I wonder if there is a better male/female ratio in Scotland, where there seems to be a little more work done on lead/follow? [unless I'm mistaken!]

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Trish

But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher? Most average Ceroc dancers are not interested in listening, or really interested in technique, only in learning more moves to wrestle their way into.

Sadly, I have to agree with this. It irritates the hell out of me in such classes to have listen to drongo, yanking apes moan about "What a waste of time the lesson is today". No, it's not the fault of the teacher. I've never quite hit upon the right retort - maybe "If the teacher's such a waste of time, how come he can dance a trillion times better than you???"

Sorry, rant mode overtook me for a few seconds there.

In salsa classes lead/follow is taught far more explicitly than in most ceroc classes. The teacher has spelt out explicitly to the followers that they must not anticipate - catchphrase- "If you don't feel it, don't fake it"!! The class is small enough that offenders can be detected and corrected.

I had thought that he'd taught how to lead fairly clearly until I asked one fellow level 2er to dance. He stood in front of me with a helpless puppy dog expression and waited for me to start leading. Sweet!

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps. But it doesn't have to be like this. I've been to WCS classes where a limited number of basic moves were taught but leaders had to decide in which order to put them in, giving them confidence and preventing the followers from anticipating.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by jivecat

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps. But it doesn't have to be like this. I've been to WCS classes where a limited number of basic moves were taught but leaders had to decide in which order to put them in, giving them confidence and preventing the followers from anticipating.

Very good point.

In the AT classes I've done, I've always made a point of (attempting to) lead any move when practicing, as if it were part of a freestyle - i.e. I'll do a bit of messing around, then attempt to lead that move, rather than follow the exact sequence the teacher has shown.

It's gotten me a few weird looks, but at least I trained my partners not to anticipate, and I think it helped both of us.

It wouldn't be easy to do that in a Ceroc class, but neither would it be impossible - given enough preparation, a routine could be devised so that any moves can be in any sequence, or the dancers could be asked to mix it up a little, maybe?

[Gadget]

I think that you need the routine in sequence; it's a good method, it's easy to follow and it works. But I did hear of one venue (an independant, or austrailian I think) that encouraged the class to finish the move just taught with a random move.

Personally, I have started adding in a random return method to get the follower back to their 'spot' during classes (or adding in an extra spin/turn/man-turn if it's the same side): It dosn't disrupt anything, takes the same amount of time as shuffling round into position again and helps me understand how I can use the move in freestyle better.
It may also be of benifit to the followers in terms of anticipating and getting them 'ready' for freestyle - but I wouldn't know for sure.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by jivecat

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps.

But somehow people taught this way manage in freestyle when the ladies don't know what move is coming next...

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by ducasi

Somehow people taught this way manage in freestyle when the ladies don't know what move is coming next...

I can't count the number of times that I've been taught a move, felt that I had it absolutely fine in class, and it's remained resolutely unleadable in freestyle.
Of course, this also happens to me when lead/follow is taught properly... but not as often.

Originally Posted by Gadget

I did hear of one venue (an independant, or austrailian I think) that encouraged the class to finish the move just taught with a random move.

That's the culture in the JazzJive classes I've been to. I'm not sure how it was introduced. It works well, though I guess it's scary for the beginners. It's not mentioned from the stage.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by ducasi

Someho