Beginner dancer in need of help!

[Heather M]

As a beginner, I’m looking for help and advice with regards to anything and everything really… but most specifically with regards to arm tension. I have been made aware that I don’t always match this to my dance partner’s. I find that each person I dance with is, naturally, quite different though so I am finding this difficult to improve upon. Does it simply get better with experience? Any other tips/information that I should be made aware of?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Heather M

As a beginner, I’m looking for help and advice with regards to anything and everything really… but most specifically with regards to arm tension. I have been made aware that I don’t always match this to my dance partner’s. I find that each person I dance with is, naturally, quite different though so I am finding this difficult to improve upon. Does it simply get better with experience? Any other tips/information that I should be made aware of?

tons Have a troll through the rest of the posts in the "Beginner's Corner" - should only take a few weeks

As to arm tension;
If you hold your arm out from your body, you hold it with just as much muscle power as is needed to keep it there. If pressure is applied down, you can equal it upwards to maintain it's position. If pressure is applied up, again you only apply the amount of muscle power to maintain it's position.
Note that it's not tense/rock solid. You are aware of the position it's meant to be in, and constantly adjust to keep it there.

This is the tension you need to apply to your connection through your arms to your torso: if an arm is pushed, it dosn't simply go back; you are trying to maintains it's position relative you the rest of your body and the connection between your partner: you will either rotate or move back.

To help with this, be aware of the size of your steps (don't move yourself too far away) and always try to move yourself rather than your hand to maintain the ammount of connection your partner gives you.


Yes, it does improve with experiance. Try dancing with eyes closed for a while - it means you are reliant on tactile leading and not distracted by visual clues as to what your partner might be doing.

Hope this helps.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Heather M

As a beginner, I’m looking for help and advice with regards to anything and everything really… but most specifically with regards to arm tension. I have been made aware that I don’t always match this to my dance partner’s.

As Gadget says, there's tons. But you don't want to start by trying to assimilate it all. Let me offer a simple exercise you can do on your own, and a few simple things to try on the dancefloor. These will be easier with slow music.

First, make sure that you know what tension and compression feel like. Find a door that has a door handle near your waist height, that's already shut, and stand far enough away from it so that when you hold on to the handle, your upper and lower arm make an 'L' shape.

Now, without moving, pull steadily on the handle, as if you were going to open it (but don't!). Not too hard, and feel the resistance in the rest of your body, especially your upper arm and shoulder. This is what we refer to as tension.

Again without moving, push steadily on the handle, as if to make sure it's shut. Again, not too hard, and again feel the resistance, this time in your pecs as well. Notice that it feels different. This is compression.

Once you know what these feel like, you can start applying it to dancing. I would recommend you try and find someone who doesn't bounce their hands up and down in time to the music, or the next bit will be harder.

The thing to remember is : Resist first, then move.

So if the guy pushes on your hand to step you back, for a split second before you step back, push back gently against his push (just resist it, don't try to force his hand backwards), and then let the compression that sets up in your body translate into a step back. Don't be tempted to either jump back more quickly than he's leading, or let your arm go back independently of your torso.

Similarly, once you're apart, and the guy leads you towards him, for a split second before you step forward, pull back against his pull, and then let the tension that sets up in your body translate into a step forward. Again, don't be tempted to either jump forward more quickly than he's leading, or let your arm go forward independently of your torso - don't let it extend out straight.

So you should feel a tension in your arm before you step forward, and a compression before you step back.

Key to becoming able to do this, is: Slow down, don't rush.

A very common mistake beginner ladies make is to try and compensate for what they think is bad following, and end up rushing from one count to the next. You need to give yourself time to feel the lead before responding to it.

It is much easier, and feels smoother and more relaxed, if you take your time. An experienced and capable lead will be able to speed you up if he needs you to.

Good luck. That's probably enough for now

Oh, just one more thing. Don't worry about matching your tension to your partner's. If you have to resist someone that has a lead that involves large forces, it turns into a tug of war, and usually the ladies come off worst. It's he that should match himself to you.

[Andy McGregor]

To talk about tension is like singing about colour, writing about smells, etc. It's so much easier to feel than talk/write about. My advice is to find somebody who's good and ask them to show you.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

To talk about tension is like singing about colour, writing about smells, etc. It's so much easier to feel than talk/write about. My advice is to find somebody who's good and ask them to show you.

This is true, of course. Doors are quite common though. And they don't bounce their handles

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

This is true, of course. Doors are quite common though. And they don't bounce their handles

And they don't give feedback or make you breakfast in bed ...

.. well you never know

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

My advice is to find somebody who's good and ask them to show you.

Hi Heather!

Just wanted to welcome you to the forum.

Sorry I can't think of anything to add to what's already been said, but I would go along with Andy and say find a friendly lead who will give you constructive advice - I'm sure Lorna would be a great help to you, but if you want me to point out a couple of men to you on Tuesday that IMO are lovely, lovely leads and would know what they are talking about, then let me know (or indeed ask Lorna who she would recommend!)

Happy Dancing,
Pamela xx

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Heather M

I have been made aware that I don’t always match this to my dance partner’s.

I guess that, since I was the one who suggested this last Tuesday night, that I should be the one to try to help.

See you tomorrow??


Incidentally, just for the record, for someone who has only been dancing for 5 weeks, you are doing very well indeed....

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Gadget

tons Have a troll through the rest of the posts in the "Beginner's Corner" - should only take a few weeks

About that ("should only take a few weeks"): the forum is great for conversation, and if you're keeping up you learn a lot, but it's NOT so great as a resource for someone with some specific question(s), because there's so much, and it's not so well organised, and there's lots of fun conversation to plow through.

A bunch of folks have been organising a companion resource at http://www.cerocwiki.com/ which should hopefully be more useful for these sorts of questions (although probably not as much fun as the forum). The idea is that eventually we'll end up with an online ceroc encyclopaedia. Maybe check it out?

[LMC]

Hi Heather

I had problems with tension when I first started (ask ChrisA ) - lots of nice people gave me good advice on a thread I started - called, relevantly, floppy arms.

Some of it will come with time and practice. www.afterfive.co.uk (set up by the forum's very own spindr) has some good advice on technical stuff too - look for frame, as someone has already suggested.

I can't add much to anyone else's advice really. But if it helps, I found thinking about what Franck calls "inner connection" quite useful - i.e. a lead should not just move your arm, but your entire body. DavidB often says "follow the hand" ...

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by LMC

DavidB often says "follow the hand" ...

I'd put this in the "next level up" category of difficulty, and runs the risk of there being just too much to think about for someone that's just starting.

"Following the hand" is certainly what happens (the idea being that the hand stays in roughly the same place relative to the body through all the stepping forwards and backwards), and it involves being able to provide resistance not just in the "forward, backward" sense as I described before, but also in the lateral sense, so that a sideways lead results in a sideways response.

This is why you'll hear the more general term "leverage" used in this context - the follower's arm is a lever which is attached to her body with enough resistance that a movement in any direction (forwards, backwards, or sideways) will result in a movement of her whole body in the corresponding direction, including turning directions.

It's this that leads to being able to provide resistance to the lead not just when stepping forwards and backwards, but also, for example, all the way through a turn, which means that the direction of the turn can be stopped and started (maybe in the opposite direction) by the lead, hopefully not at random, of course, but to mark something in the music.

But at that level it's very hard. If you can get to the point where you can relax into it all enough to provide some tension before you step forward, and compression before you step back, it's probably more than enough for now.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by LMC

DavidB often says "follow the hand" ...

Yeah, and Will often replies "Talk to the hand".

Anyway - I agree with everyone. Practice lots & dance with the Tramp.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Don't worry about matching your tension to your partner's. ... It's he that should match himself to you.

I'd disagree with that. Both dancers should attempt to adapt to their partner. More experienced dancers will naturally do the bulk of the adapting, because they can.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I'd disagree with that. Both dancers should attempt to adapt to their partner. More experienced dancers will naturally do the bulk of the adapting, because they can.

<sigh>

I wonder why it is that some people are just determined to quote out of context in order to disagree with something.

In general, you're right of course. But I wasn't talking in general. I said (in response to someone that had been dancing 5 weeks):

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Oh, just one more thing. Don't worry about matching your tension to your partner's. If you have to resist someone that has a lead that involves large forces, it turns into a tug of war, and usually the ladies come off worst. It's he that should match himself to you.

Of course it is true ( ) that a follower should provide less resistance to a lead that is very light, and a little more resistance to someone whose lead is a little less light.

But you know as well as I do that out there in the real world, beginners have to cope with people that exert large forces, and these large forces develop largely out of self-preservation. A guy pulls hard, so the girl has to resist hard to stop herself being pulled off balance. A girl steps back and expects the guy to support much of her weight, so the guy gets used to exerting large forces.

It's a vicious circle, which we would do well to try and break.

Just to be specific, this "matching" we're talking about should be within the bounds of small forces, and should not be escalated to the tug of war that regrettably we come across all the time.

I would say, that if an experienced lead comes across a beginner follower that exerts large forces, it is the wrong thing to do, to exert large forces on her in return.

Much better is to provide a moment of resistance to such a large force from a beginner follower (so that she can feel it), and then before it builds up to the level that it would have to reach to reverse her direction, take most of that resistance away. The consequence of this is that she then has to take control of her own momentum in order to change direction. Ideally, this "provide resistance, then take it away" can be introduced gradually during a dance, so that she isn't left wondering what on earth you're doing.

But this approach needs quite a subtle control over the strength and timing of the lead, and it's not always easy.

But no tug-of-wars, please.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Gary

A bunch of folks have been organising a companion resource at http://www.cerocwiki.com/ which should hopefully be more useful for these sorts of questions (although probably not as much fun as the forum). The idea is that eventually we'll end up with an online ceroc encyclopaedia. Maybe check it out?

Sorry, but I'm not so sure this is helpful to a beginner in the UK - too much of it assumes you're dancing in Australia. I know people have tried to keep it international, but take a look at the first 3 items in the tips for beginners entry:

1 A Ceroc class is meant to be fun - so relax and smile - believe it or not it is easier to dance if you relax and don't try so hard!
2 Don't worry if you don't get all the moves in the Beginners Class - you can ask all your questions in the Beginner Progression Class.
3 Make sure you ask your Beginner Progression Teacher about the First Timers classes.

OK, item 1 is fine, no problems there. Item 2 - well, we don't have a Beginner Progression Class. Item 3 - no such teacher, and no such classes.

Moving on, the first tip for guys says

in classes they teach you the footwork for all the moves

As Robert has remarked upon, not over here!

Now sure, I can read it and translate to UK equivalents, but I'm no beginner!

Sorry and all that - I do think it's a good resource, but I don't think the original poster is the best target audience.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

But you know as well as I do that out there in the real world, beginners have to cope with people that exert large forces, and these large forces develop largely out of self-preservation. A guy pulls hard, so the girl has to resist hard to stop herself being pulled off balance. A girl steps back and expects the guy to support much of her weight, so the guy gets used to exerting large forces.

:shrug: I've always found that the hand hold breaks the cycle: if you're not gripping, then there is only so much force that can be applied before you natually slip apart.

I find that I "lose" my partners on a fairly regular basis because I judge the distance wrong (either that they are traveling, or I am). It's not a problem. Most beginners have a 'fear' of letting go that can develop into this excess force and grip. Fix this and the rest seems to slot into place.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

if you're not gripping, then there is only so much force that can be applied before you natually slip apart.

If, by "grip", you mean gripping with the thumb, then this isn't true. A standard Ceroc hold (not that I would try to maintain it like that all the time) will sustain any amount of pull, even without a grip with the thumb, if the fingers are kept stiff. And similarly push, since the back of the leader's fingers are pushing against the follower's palm. You'll lose the connection if you relax the fingers and let them slide apart, however, and in some cases this can be handy, if rather ungainly, since you don't really want to be letting your partner go suddenly enough for them to take out the neighbouring dancers like skittles.

Most beginners have a 'fear' of letting go that can develop into this excess force and grip.

I don't know about "most". Some, certainly.

"Excess force" and "grip" are often two separate problems, and the excess force often continues long after the fear of letting go is no longer an issue.

It's certainly better to let go and lose the connection completely, than end up exerting large forces. But it doesn't in itself help the beginner follower to control her own momentum, which is why I don't often do it.

[Gadget]

{For any beginners reading - this is just arguing schemantics and definitions; we all agree on the underlying "to much force = bad" and "gripping = bad"}

Originally Posted by ChrisA

If, by "grip", you mean gripping with the thumb, then this isn't true. A standard Ceroc hold (not that I would try to maintain it like that all the time) will sustain any amount of pull, even without a grip with the thumb, if the fingers are kept stiff.

my emphisis; I don't know how it's taught where you are, but the phrase "draped loosley" is often used here and other key points like "allow your partner's hand to move freely" are mentioned quite regularly. IMHO the "standard Ceroc hold" should not have stiff fingers.

And similarly push, since the back of the leader's fingers are pushing against the follower's palm. You'll lose the connection if you relax the fingers and let them slide apart,

you loose the connection to the face/pads of your fingers, but you simultaneously gain one on the back of your fingers. Generally the hand should be kept low, so the transfer of connection is not really a straight pull to push; there is a transition where there is a light contact from the weight of the follower's hand on the top of the finger(s) - this is essential because it maintains the connection. The follower can still feel you there, even though the direction of lead has temporaraly stopped.
I'm sure that this is the area you are talking about followers anticipating in - getting them to stop assuming that since the lead has stopped in one direction it will automatically be resumed in the opposite direction. The follower has to feel the lead back before moving with it.

{I did think I dissagreed with your "Wait" comments - but if this is the context, then it was just the way it was presented I had trouble understanding }

... however, and in some cases this can be handy, if rather u