Another arm wrenching query!!

[Magic Hans]

It's only fairly recently that I've noticed this.

When returning my partner (and just before or as she steps back), I sometimes find that my arm gets pulled out to the side before being pulled down (away from me). I certainly notice this more with a left-right return than I do for a right-right return.

What's the origin of this little 'variation on a theme'. I can appreciate where the leaning back when stepping back behaviour comes from [bungee effect], but the origin of this little arm/shoulder jerker is a bit of a mystery to me.

Anyone else suffer anything similar?

Any ideas (especially from ladies)?

!an

[Asif]

Two possible explanations ....

a) You are "Porridge Stirring" your partners. When you are doing a return on your partner, all you need to do is initiate the spin. As soon as your partner starts spinning, you then just need to keep your hand above her head (to help balance her and give her support in case she spins off balance herself). Once she completes her spin, that is when you lower your hand from above her head. Porridge stirring is where you stir her hand around her head. The result of this is that your partner will more than likely be thrown off balance - her natural reaction then is to tug on your hand to try to regain her balance, hence the pulling on your arm, resulting in your arm being pulled out to the side when she has completed her turn. OR,

b) Your partner is leading herself and doing her own spinning. As a result, she is then only using your supporting hand to "stop her spin", thus having the same end result.

I hope that answers your question.

[LMC]

A style workshop I went to described a turn as a "block" on the lead's part, more than an active turn in the porridge stirring mode described by Asif. If you are raising your hand too high then that will also throw the follower off balance - the leading hand should ideally be just in front of the top of her forehead.

[Jeremy]

Are you talking about the step back after the return is done or a step back before the return starts?

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by Asif

Two possible explanations ....

a) You are "Porridge Stirring" your partners. ...

b) Your partner is leading herself and doing her own spinning. ...

Hmmmm .... I hate to say, however, I'm not convinced by either.

I've always been far to gentle a lead to even come close to 'porridge stirring' (as I hope previous dance partners would testify too) and ... from my perspective partner will spin herself and rely on me, only for invitation!

Might she be doing some manner of leading? Perhaps, but if so, being far more forceful than she needs to be! .... like I say, I'm really not convinced.

My other observation, (which I'm not totally happy to bet my life on) is that this seems to be a behaviour learned some time beyond the first few weeks/months. This makes me wonder if it is some self-defence response to overly forceful leading!!

I just simply do not know (and, for the record, am a difficult man to convince!)

Ian

[Andybroom]

Obviously I can't say for sure without watching you doing it, but it does sound more likely that it's you not getting your hand/arm in exactly the right place at the right time and/or not actually having enough tone in your arm muscles to stop her pulling you. Like most things there is a right way to lead - that would be called "light" but light can turn into limp if you aren't careful!

It's normally obvious if she's backleading.

Andy

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

When returning my partner (and just before or as she steps back), I sometimes find that my arm gets pulled out to the side before being pulled down (away from me). I certainly notice this more with a left-right return than I do for a right-right return.

I've seen this a lot. I think there are two main contributory factors to it.

The first is that girls are often led extremely badly in turns and spins.

The Ceroc teaching approach is, quite rightly, very much anti- the dreadful porridge-stirring thing that Asif describes, but I think they go too far, and end up advocating providing a more or less vertically-above-their-head pivot point under which they turn under their own steam.

As usual, I prefer the Amir method, which is to provide an actual lead, around the halo that the more discerning of us gents can see very clearly, just above the ladies' heads.

A lot of guys, however, seem to think that the lady's halo is about eight feet in diameter, and the consequence is that a lot of ladies end up expecting the lead to be that wide. Hence the subjective experience of the guy, that she's pulling his hand to one side.

The other, and IMO more common reason for MH's experience is, very simply, poor balance.

Given a strong guy, and a point immediately above her head around which to pivot, it's not surprising that lots of girls that haven't yet learned to balance in turns and spins, use the guy's arm for support, as they turn. If they go off balance to one side or the other, they'll inevitably lean on the guy's arm, which he'll experience as pulling his arm off to one side.

It's often worse in one direction than another, or with one hand than the other. This can be due to the girl being more off balance in one direction than the other, or indeed to the guy pulling her off balance in one part of the turn (which he doesn't notice), forcing her to compensate by pulling against his arm in another part of the turn (which he does).

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I've seen this a lot. I think there are two main contributory factors to it.

...

Thanks Chris

That's a very useful perspective, and I can clearly see where this might come from.

... certainly the learning to balance thing. As someone who's done yoga, clmibing, (some) tai chi and (some) Aikido, balance is never far from my consious thought, and I take this for granted. I'm well aware how unbalanced I have been, and so, others might be.

Interesting bit about the 'halo' lead ... my initial reaction was "No! that will simply move the point of reference that my partner has, and so she's bound to overbalance!"

However, with further thought, so long as that halo is small (ie not outside the ladies base - contact with the floor-ish) there should be little scope for overbalancing.

I'm still not totally convinced, but this give me useful food for thought, and certainly something that I will bear in mind in future.

Thanks!! ... Ian

[Jive Brummie]

I'm trying to picture this and think I may have an idea what you mean.

To reiterate...in a return the lady 'dinks' her hand out to the side - then steps back.

Possible reasons for this could be...

If she is only doing a rock step with the back foot as opposed to stepping back fully and completley transfering her weight then 9 times out of 10 (in my experience) it may cause her to be 'off-beat' on the step back in. To compensate for this an extra action is used to fill the gap...in this instance, an arm 'dink' out to the side. By doing this she can still do her rock step whcih may be ingrained into her but she know's she'll still be in time with you and the music because of her extra arm movement.

This can also be caused by your partner not letting herself step back far enough because her arm is too tense. Again a symptom Melanie and I have seen in our beginners that take a rock step. In the same vain as the rock step, if the arm is too tense then she may reaslise that she steps in too quickly and throws you off beat. To compensate, the tense arm does this extra movement so that she ends up compensating for herself when in reality all she may need to do is just relax with the arm and the feet.

Not sure if that helps or if I've explained it clearly enough...but I know what I mean .

JB.

(FC is good at explaining this sort of thing).

She's just come down stairs and thinks it could be because the lady is overturning. The reason for this being that she is overcompensating because they're not entirley sure how to fill the beat properly on the step back.

Sometimes up here it's called a "Check-check"...mutter, mumble...looks pants...should be banned...and not taught as a 'style' point!

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

To reiterate...in a return the lady 'dinks' her hand out to the side - then steps back.

Just thought -- maybe she thinks that she should try and draw a "C" every time she steps back -- as it's a return it would be a "high-C"

SpinDr.