Lead and Follow .... yet again!!!

[Magic Hans]

Following on from:

How much lead and follow can be taught in a standard weekday class?
How much lead and follow can be taught in a standard weekday class?

What's the best way to teach Lead & Follow to Improvers & Intermediates?
What's the best way to teach Lead & Follow to Improvers & Intermediates?

The roles of lead and follow...
The roles of lead and follow...

Lead & Follow Workshop - Notes
Lead & Follow Workshop - Notes

lead and follow
lead and follow

I just found this:

Frequently Asked Questions about Lead and Follow
On The Way Dancing Is (mis)taught
http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/...steaching.html


In particular:

Most teachers teach dances rather than dancing, because it's easier. But the focus on steps in dance teaching may be the biggest single obstacle to the learning of dancing well. This is best summed up in the following quote: "Bad teachers taught me steps, great teachers taught me dancing." Learning the pattern of the week is not the key to success.

Non-dancers tend to think that dancing is step-sequences. And the more step sequences they cram the more dancing they have learned. Teachers often succumb to this market pressure, and besides, anyone can teach step sequences but few can teach dancing.

What some people like to marginalize as "styling" - posture, balance, weight change, appropriate force, basic timing and footwork, dancing with the music and with your partner ... these are the *essentials* of dancing. The rest is just so many patterns.

Beginning men need a *lot* of help. And the best way their partners can help is to follow their lead, even if it's wrong, rather than "compensating" for a bad lead. This gives the leaders proper feedback.

For the lady, being able to follow a weak leader is the mark of a good dancer.

A good lead/follow is like a good conversation - you don't have to yell, you only need to talk. As you get better, all you really need to do is whisper. Leading is not to be misinterpreted as "pushing or pulling". Though poor followers often say, "If I have a strong leader I can follow", they would need the force of an "Arnold Schwartzenegger" (after he's properly warmed up) to move them across the floor. Equal sympathy goes to followers who encounter a leader who hasn't the foggiest of what he's trying to lead and can't move rhythmically to any music, doesn't know a slow from a quick and has no conception of what misery he is inflicting on his partner.

Really Really good stuff in here ... I think.

Anyone care to agree???? Or disagree (Agreeably please!!!)

!an

[straycat]

I agree with 1 & 2, kinda with 3 (I didn't realise people saw such things as styling)

4 is a tough one. Yes, if the lead can handle that. Yes, if you're having connection lessons. OTOH, it might be said that the best help a beginner could get would be for the follower to show some pity, and self-lead a little until they're more confident with the shape of a move. So long as the leader is aware that the lead will need some work...
Grey area, I think.

5. No - I don't think so. Some good followers can do this, sure, but I don't think it signifies much either way.

6. Conversation, yes, absolutely. Never been sure about the whispering analogy though - but it suffices in a beginner context. Until you start getting onto the whole connection / tension / compression area, but I think that can be glossed over at this point

There's some odd bits - to get picky, here's a part I really didn't like:

illustrated by a teacher (Mario Robau) taking his partner's hand in his and saying, "when I tug at her hand I don't just want her hand, I want all of her". (showing first the non-dancer's, then the dancers response -- non-dancer: hand moves, then lower arm, then upper arm, then shoulder, and finally the rest, (sideways :-)

Use of the word 'tug' - BAD. What he's trying to do is illustrate body-leads, which is good, but the vocabulary's suspect - a leader should never ever 'tug' the follower's hand. The "non-dancer's" response is the inevitable result (plus a degree of pain).

On the whole though, there is as you say some very good stuff in there, especially in the whole moves vs. dance arena. Good link

[MartinHarper]

I do like the rec.arts.dance FAQ. It's probably the piece of dance-writing that has most influenced my dancing.

Originally Posted by straycat264

Use of the word 'tug' - BAD. What he's trying to do is illustrate body-leads, which is good, but the vocabulary's suspect - a leader should never ever 'tug' the follower's hand. The "non-dancer's" response is the inevitable result (plus a degree of pain).

As I read that quote, he's trying to illustrate follower frame, rather than body leads. Even when I apply an "arm lead" to my partner's hand, I still want her entire body, not just her hand.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I do like the rec.arts.dance FAQ. It's probably the piece of dance-writing that has most influenced my dancing.

There's a lot of good concrete advice there, and the newer web-based forums are only just starting to reach a similar depth.

As I read that quote, he's trying to illustrate follower frame, rather than body leads. Even when I apply an "arm lead" to my partner's hand, I still want her entire body, not just her hand.

Good point. Although somehow I can't see Mario Robau doing an arm lead when he demonstrates. In terms of the conceptual side of things, I'm not sure there's anyone more respected in WCS than Mario - he is very good at creating metaphors that "stick", even if, as here, they can be picked apart by the pedantic.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

As I read that quote, he's trying to illustrate follower frame, rather than body leads. Even when I apply an "arm lead" to my partner's hand, I still want her entire body, not just her hand.

Fair enough, but I maintain that if you 'tug' her arm, you're not going to get it.
(not getting drawn on the whole body lead / frame debate)

Originally Posted by David Franklin

<snippety> even if, as here, they can be picked apart by the pedantic.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em

[LMC]

There is some excellent stuff in there, I found that link quite early on in my dancing career.

However, I have a few reservations about *exactly* following a very beginner lead - having tried it, it can demoralise a first or second timer who really doesn't have a clue because Ceroc doesn't teach lead and follow principles and they have *no idea* what they are doing wrong or imagine that you are being unco-operative. In these cases, I reckon that sometimes it's kinder to treat them as a weak lead and mostly follow what you know to be the intention, and focus on 'correcting' the worst bits by either saying something (guy who tries to turn himself on a shoulder drop before you've finished the return - OW!) or exactly following the lead, then explaining why it didn't work.

When it comes to "new intermediates" now... - especially if it's a 6-week beginner who I have tactfully advised needs some more review classes.

I like this quote from the previous "chapter" on the importance of dancing with beginners:

You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners. Dance with them and ask yourself why each incorrectly led/followed figure didn't work and when you figure it out, work on incorporating the fixes into all your dancing!

(my bold)

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by straycat264

Fair enough, but I maintain that if you 'tug' her arm, you're not going to get it.

I'd consider tug as specialised dance terminology in much the same way as leverage. Leverage doesn't really mean that to move my partner I need a long rod and a place to stand. Tug doesn't really mean that I need to "pull at vigorously or repeatedly", "move by pulling with great effort or exertion; drag", or "tow by tugboat". (to quote a random dictionary).

[TA Guy]

MMMMM, I dunno.

Since most are agreeing, here's an opposing view for the fun of it

It depends on what your trying to achieve.

If your trying to achieve perfection, then those quotes make sense.... on the other hand.... What's the point of perfection for perfections sake ?

Considering Ceroc, which apparently teaches virtually no lead or follow techniques, is prolly responsible for more people attempting to take up partner dancing than any other teaching model, I would consider that a success story which has yet to actually be disproven as the best method of getting people into partner dance. Bad or Good. (at least in this country).

Why rush it by trying for perfection and dumping all those people (which would include me) who were/are slow starters or just need the encouragement of getting the easier bit (steps/moves) first etc. Jeez, I had enough trouble with the Arm Jive when I started, I would have been out the door if I'd been told to watch my lead strength and weight transfer etc. as well.

Not everyone gets the harder bits straight away. There's plenty of time to learn to dance well later.

Personally, assuming the people who wrote those quotes practise them as well, I am sooooooooooooo glad none of them was my first teacher. I'd be hanging around on street corners yarning the biff now instead of dancing

Learning Ceroc is (relatively) easy and Fun, that's why it works. Making it a search for perfection doesn't.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I'd consider tug as specialised dance terminology in much the same way as leverage. Leverage doesn't really mean that to move my partner I need a long rod and a place to stand. Tug doesn't really mean that I need to "pull at vigorously or repeatedly", "move by pulling with great effort or exertion; drag", or "tow by tugboat". (to quote a random dictionary).

TUG verb (tugged, tug*ging) [ trans] pull (something) hard or suddenly.

If there's a special dance definition, meaning 'not hard or suddenly', that's good, but I'd be surprised.

Stray

[alex]

i was surprised at the dictionary definition. when i hear the word 'tug', i think about a child 'tugging' at its parent's arm to get attention.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by LMC

There is some excellent stuff in there, I found that link quite early on in my dancing career.

...

Wish I had!!!! I'm sure not all of it is completely accurate or 100% useful .... but I just really love stuff that strongly challenges the status quo, and paints a decidely different light on a (any) subject!!!

... Personally I believe that we all could do with a shake up once in a while (though it can be uncomfortable some times!!!)

!an