Mary was not a virgin...!

[Double Trouble]

I was watching Christmas Voices on BBC1 this morning. I was fascinated to learn that when the Greeks translated the original Hebrew manuscript of the birth of Christ, they got it all wrong...

"Look, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel."

In fact 'Virgin' comes from Mattews use of a Greek mistranslation. The Hebrew in Isaiah reads 'Young Girl'.

So not a virgin after all, just a young girl, knocked up with nowhere to go.

Fascinating stuff. My view is that you don't have to believe in fairy stories to have faith. You can still be faithful to God, without believing in miracles.

[rubyred]

Yes a young girl, pregant 'out of wedlock' ,to a young lad who was a carpenter, nowhere to live, no money and no proper form of transport just a donkey, in a time when there was political upheaval and census taking to prove where you came from and were accountable under the tax laws and to some extent a bit of the old ethnic cleansing and 1984 Big Brother going on. Hey how comforting to know that noughts changed then over the years.

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by rubyred

...just a donkey...census taking to prove where you came from and were accountable under the tax laws

Apparently there was no donkey and no census at the time Jesus was born. Oh..and King Herod died 4 years before the birth of Christ too.....Go figure.

That Matthew and Luke sure were good story tellers. They were the Steven Spielbergs of their time. Not forgetting that their versions of events were written 80 years after Jesus was born.

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

That Matthew and Luke sure were good story tellers. They were the Steven Spielbergs of their time. Not forgetting that their versions of events were written 80 years after Jesus was born.

Apparently there were other gospels written that have not been made famous like the two above and like you said their accounts are a bit like chinese whispers and things get added on and taken away as the teller feels fit to please the audience at the time.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

I was watching Christmas Voices on BBC1 this morning. I was fascinated to learn that when the Greeks translated the original Hebrew manuscript of the birth of Christ, they got it all wrong...

"Look, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel."

In fact 'Virgin' comes from Mattews use of a Greek mistranslation. The Hebrew in Isaiah reads 'Young Girl'.

So not a virgin after all, just a young girl, knocked up with nowhere to go.

Fascinating stuff. My view is that you don't have to believe in fairy stories to have faith. You can still be faithful to God, without believing in miracles.

The Mary of the Bible WAS a virgin. Obviously, it is everyones choice whether to believe the biblical account. I do believe it myself.

However, as far as the Bible is concerned, it clearly stated that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, and any claim that any or all of those statements of the virgin birth are a mistranslation can for example be put to bed by just looking at her "How can this be?" reaction (when she was told she was with child by the Angel) because she knew she was a virgin.

(Not to mention it is a rather convenient coincidence for those who don't want to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, but don't want to right off the Bible, that this apparent "Mistranslation" occured in both the Hebrew and the Greek translations!)

Anyway, may I wish y'all a Happy Christmas and a Great '08 !!!



Will

[Astro]

She could have been a virgin.

It sometimes happens that a baby girl is born who should have been a twin.

The twin's egg is not fertilised, but lodges in the girl baby's womb.

When the girl baby starts to menstuate in her teens the egg comes to "life" and grows in her womb to be a baby.

So she gives birth to her twin brother or sister.

And she is still a virgin when she gives birth.

Simple explaination.

Next.

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by Will

The Mary of the Bible WAS a virgin...just looking at her "How can this be?" reaction

Yeah that explains it. Who needs facts when you can look at someone's face to see the truth.

She probably had the same look I had on my face when I found out I was pregnant with my middle son. I said something similar to "How can this be?" to my rather guilty looking husband to which he replied "Well I might have let a little bit in" Something tells me Joseph and my husband have more in common than I ever gave the useless numpty credit for.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Will

The Mary of the Bible WAS a virgin. Obviously, it is everyones choice whether to believe the biblical account. I do believe it myself.

Not necessarily, there were lots of translation discrepancies, for example;

When Mary responds to the angel's good tidings in Luke, one translation of her speech is, "How can this be, I do not know a man?" But in the Greek, the word for man is anthropos,which also means "husband." If this is the meaning Luke intended, the text could imply that Jesus had a human father who was not Joseph.

Also, in the Magnificat, Mary's song of praise and thanksgiving to God, she says, "God has lifted up his humble maidservant." The Greek word for "humble" is the same one that the Septuagint (the old Greek version of the Hebrew Bible) uses to describe the rape of Dinah in Genesis and other incidents of sexual violation. From this, you could consider the possibility that Mary's "humility" could be "humiliation" from a sexual assault.

[Gav]

Personally, I believe that the bible was a whole load of stories designed to inspire faith. Belief that the stories are word-for-word historically correct accounts is not necessary for faith.

[Astro]

Originally Posted by Gav

Not necessarily, there were lots of translation discrepancies, for example;

When Mary responds to the angel's good tidings in Luke, one translation of her speech is, "How can this be, I do not know a man?" But in the Greek, the word for man is anthropos,which also means "husband." If this is the meaning Luke intended, the text could imply that Jesus had a human father who was not Joseph.

Gav's post reminded me that I once read a theory, but can't remember the names and facts. maybe someone else will know more?

It was that Mary had been at the royal court - she was well born - and her uncle had got her pregnant.

He was married with kids and Mary had to be got rid of as she was an embarassment to the family.

So it was Mary who was born of King David's line.

Also, in the Magnificat, Mary's song of praise and thanksgiving to God, she says, "God has lifted up his humble maidservant." The Greek word for "humble" is the same one that the Septuagint (the old Greek version of the Hebrew Bible) uses to describe the rape of Dinah in Genesis and other incidents of sexual violation. From this, you could consider the possibility that Mary's "humility" could be "humiliation" from a sexual assault.

That would fit in with the uncle molesting her - it wasn't a one off and I think they rather liked each other - but all the same it was incest.

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by Astro

but all the same it was incest.

The plot thickens...! So tell me...did Jesus have webbed feet? Maybe when he was nailed to the cross they got him in the webby bit, he played dead for a while and then had it on his toes when they put him in the cave.

This is better than Eastenders....!

[dave the scaffolder]

Now then if I was not a jaffa (ie seedless), Trouble could have a virgin birth let me explain...

I quite often try to inseminate her when she is asleep.

I even have the good manners to replace her nighty and wipe her down before she wakes up.

Could this explain a virgin birth?

XXX XXX DTS Dave

Ps no offence is meant to any and all religous beliefs.

[Gus]

Love it. Minds immeasurably superior to those on this forum have researched and debated to meaning of the Bible for With all respect, I'll stick to my faith and you guys can stick to 'TV education'.

Merry Christmas

PS ... I wonder what would be the consequence of trying to rubbish the Islam faith in a similar fashion ......

[dave the scaffolder]

GUS my lover this is the Great in Great Britain....
Our ability to discuss in a humourous way very serious issues, without causing offence.

XXX XXX DTS Dave

[Trouble]

Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder

Now then if I was not a jaffa (ie seedless), Trouble could have a virgin birth let me explain...

I quite often try to inseminate her when she is asleep.

I even have the good manners to replace her nighty and wipe her down before she wakes up.

Could this explain a virgin birth?

XXX XXX DTS Dave

Ps no offence is meant to any and all religous beliefs.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder

GUS my lover this is the Great in Great Britain....
Our ability to discuss in a humourous way very serious issues, without causing offence.

So who decides it doesn't cause offence ... those causing the offence or those who may be offended?

Personally I'm not offended, in the same way that I believe the concept of blasphemy to be illogical (if I believe in an all powerful deity ... surely that God is totally capable of making any that cause him displeasure suffer tremendously by either thunderbolts, baldness or middle aged spread .... well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad) However, I do think that sometimes its useful to think of how others may take what is said ...

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by Gus

God is totally capable of making any that cause him displeasure suffer tremendously by either thunderbolts, baldness or middle aged spread .... well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad)

But I thought God was all forgiving...oh hang on....another contradiction.

DTS hasn't been struck by lightening as far as I know, so you saying DTS is bald and fat.

I think the thunderbolts will be coming your way Gus...and not from God.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Gus

Love it. Minds immeasurably superior to those on this forum have researched and debated to meaning of the Bible for

Looking back through the posts so far, I can only see 1 person quoting a TV programme.

Originally Posted by Gus

With all respect, I'll stick to my faith and you guys can stick to 'TV education'.

The point is that there's a difference between faith and belief.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

But I thought God was all forgiving...oh hang on....another contradiction.

Urrgh ... where is the contradiction on what has been said before?

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

DTS hasn't been struck by lightening as far as I know, so you saying DTS is bald and fat.

Wasn't actually commenting about DTS .. was a self deprecating joke ... just had a VERY short haircut and not overly happy about having to move up a size in trousers. Why .. is DTS bald and fat? If so, not exactly an uncommon situation for many cerocers is it ...

Originally Posted by Double Trouble

I think the thunderbolts will be coming your way Gus...and not from God.

For why?

Originally Posted by Gav

The point is that there's a difference between faith and belief.

Ahem ... the point I was trying to make that a single TV program is NOT fact ... just look at all the trouble the BBC has got itself into recently. Also ... how many people believed the 'fact' that you have to drink loads of pure water a day ... until it was recently proven to be false? My faith/belief comes through a composite of fact based 'evidence' presented by learned scholars, my religious education/indoctrination and personal experience. I'm not saying I believe ALL the aspects taught by the various Christian faiths (especially the Papacy ), but I regard myself a believer in the Christain faith and try to lead a better life through its teachings. Far from perfect at it but I'm trying to get better.