Is a £1 a pint too much for tap water??

[under par]

I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!!

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?

All other aspects of the evening where excellent , the floor was great , the music brilliant, loads of great dancers and all the other fun bits to the night but I did feel aggrieved watching the bar staff turning on the tap to fill my glass and watch them ring up the till for my £1.

Anybody else got any similar experiences anywhere else?

[Matthew]

That's nuts!

We have it good in Australia -- all venues non-smoking, smoking also illegal in bar areas, and mandatory free tap water on pain of the club losing its liquor licence.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by under par

I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!!

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?

All other aspects of the evening where excellent , the floor was great , the music brilliant, loads of great dancers and all the other fun bits to the night but I did feel aggrieved watching the bar staff turning on the tap to fill my glass and watch them ring up the till for my £1.

Anybody else got any similar experiences anywhere else?

Must admit this one bugs me...........but
I have just booked a venue in the London area for a monthly dance and their only concern was.....salsa/MJ/R&R dancers do not spend money at the bar cos they drink water all night.
a MJ dance night could take £500 max over the bar. wheras an alternative dance night takes £5000
So to get the venue we had to accept them charging for water.
Do we accept paying for water to secure better venues or do we insist on free water and risk losing the good venues.

Do other venues such as Hipsters Hammersmith, Bromley provide tap water?

I have another venue we are looking at which is a school hall - very often this puts MJ dancers off, but we could provide free water! I dont think a school hall with free water would be as popular as a proper dance venue

I know many venues provide free water and a great dance hall - but dance organisers cannot always dictate the rules - we accept what the management stipulates
LL

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

....salsa/MJ/R&R dancers do not spend money at the bar cos they drink water all night.

Maybe this is whole new trend ... but LL has highlighted a key problem with the MJ scene ... that the dancers are tight-wads( ). Given that the MJ dancers are generally fairly affluent it amazes me how hard it is to part them from their cash. If I'm out with mates on the town you are going to easily blow upwards of £30 but I've seen MJers trying to sneak in drinks to save a few pounds (in fact I've seen dancers try to sneak in full stop.) No matter how good a freestyle you put on (except maybe at Xmas) .. try charging more than £8 and you will end up watching an empty dancer floor though a competitor may be appalling but will get numbers just because they charge a few quid less. And don’t get me started about workshops .... out a local instructor in and charge £25 .. no probs ... get a Nationally rated instructor and try charging £30 and again you hit problems. Sometimes there really is no logic in this game

{Rant Over}

[Dreadful Scathe]

Im not sure where you legally stand - can you refuse to pay for tap water ? I can fully understand LL's point and realise that venue owners have to make money, and bottled water is quite acceptable but to sell tap water just sounds like they are trying to maximise profits and seems to be a cynical slap in the face. After all, if they are that worried about profits they would get better paying customers in - they fact that they dont suggests that they cant!

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

.....but to sell tap water just sounds like they are trying to maximise profits and seems to be a cynical slap in the face.

I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

... Do other venues such as Hipsters Hammersmith, Bromley provide tap water? ...

Years back Bromley used to have a free drinking fountain with plastic cup supplied (to the right of the bar). They started to cover it up, and charge for bottled water. I wrote the hall a stiff letter of protest, and threatened to send a similar one to the local newspapers, along the lines that it was a sports facility and they were encouraging the punters to drink less healthy drinks, and the public could walk into the toilets for free, and drink the tap water from there for free, etc.

They wrote back to say that they had reversed their decision, and the facility would be restored. I moved away before I could find out what happened, and I do not know what the situation is now. Sometimes protesting works.

[Banana Man]

Originally Posted by Gus

I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

I agree there is a strong commercial aspect involved here, and it does depend on how the event promoter structures their profit. When I was in Perth at the BFG I had to get the guy behind the bar to repeat the price of a bottle of Becks three times - the price - £1 , the bar was run by Franck's team, not by the venue owners. Maybe it's a reflection of the costs of hiring venues in different parts of the country as to how much mark-up is put on drinks.

I think, but I'm not sure here, that most MJ organisations are membership based allowing them to provide bar facilities in unlicensed premises, any profit made here is additional to entrance/class charges. In venues that already have a bar I guess you have to accept how that venue operates commercially as part of the deal.

Personally I think that free tap water should be provided at all venues or alterntively people should be allowed to take their own bottled water in with them.

IMHO most MJers go to dance, not to drink (alcohol), and only want soft drinks. At the bigger venues, many people drive and don't want to drink.

I was curious to see what the legal position was, and unfortunately unlike Down Under, we're not quite there yet on free water. However, there is a government strategy paper out on "alcohol harm reduction" which has the following objective in it: "A commitment to provide reasonably priced soft drinks and to make free water available on all bars". So maybe there's hope yet.

At the end of the day though Gus is right, money has to be made somewhere - entry or bar/cloakroom mark-ups. Maybe the solution is to put the entry charges up and have a non-profit bar.

[Bangers & Mash]

Originally Posted by Gus

I would suggest that charging for tap water is no diffeenet than the markup that exists on current bar products. A bottle of Becks may sell across the bar for £3, which probably costs them 50p ... so a £2.50 profit. If I sell you a pint of water for £1 I make a £1 profit. Another view is if I run a venue I need to make £x return ... I can either make that across the bar or by charging for the room. Either way the total cost to the punters will be the same. Would you prefer to pay £15 entry and 10p a pint of water or £8 entry and £1 a pint. Your choice ... BUT if the retincence about allowing venues to make a commercial return continues the MJ community will only have itself to blame when there are no venues willing to accept bookings . Wonder what the MJDA would stand on this issue?

Gus makes a fair point. Most venues need to show a profit and so charging for water is probably not unreasonable. Especially since they have to pay for the staff to pour the water, the glass to put it in, cleaning the glass, heating the water to clean the glass, and then pay the water company to supply the water.

Even with £1 a pint, MJ is still a very cheap night out - less than £10 for a whole evening of great dancing and great music (except Tuesdays in certain locations ).

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Eric

Personally I think that free tap water should be provided at all venues or alterntively people should be allowed to take their own bottled water in with them.

I carry my own water everywhere I go (admittedly a habit I got into when living in West Africa!) - just a small bottle filled from the tap at home. I wouldn't get it out in a restaurant etc, and even if out dancing would sometimes buy a soft drink at first and keep my water till later. But I wouldn't be too happy to be not allowed to have it with me.

[under par]

I think my shock was enhanced because it was a Xmas Party night with FREE champagne cocktails in the 1st hour, with FREE food being handed out too, later there was FREE coffee and tea, and FREE clementines and mince pies!

So why £1 for tap water??


It was a great evening though. Well organised and everybody really helpful and friendly , Mrs Par and I will venture north again some time. Maybe take our own bottled water eh!

[Sparkles]

I think charging for tap water is rediculous.
Just to go back to basics for a sec, water is a survival essential; along with shelter, warmth and air (food obviously being a latter consideration but also essential). To charge for something which is free and an essential commodity is lunacy . If people wish to drink mineral water which is specially bottled, and is supposedly of a higher quality than tap water, then that they should pay for the privelidge is not outrageous.
I think that if you're going to a venue that charges for tap water you should take a bottle of your own from home (admittedly you might not have known this would be the case on your fist visit, but next time...). If the difference is, as LL says, £4500 - then they're not going to make up the short-fall by charging for tap water, are they?
It shows lack of consideration for the punters from the management of the venue and makes the dancing organisations that hire the venues look bad. Plus it gets the dancers annoyed!
It's not about the punters' lack of funds, it's the princple.

[Chicklet]

I have to agree that I hate paying for water and have once or twice made a small, yet polite, scene when asked to do so...but can see the economic issues too....what about paying £1 at the door for a handstamp / paper wristband / token / x for "free" water the rest of the night?

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by under par

I had my first vist to Ashtons on 27th and had an absolutey brilliant evening.

It was only slightly spoiled by having to pay a whole pound sterling for tap water!!

I have never been to any other venue which so blatantly ripped dancers off in this way.

Is it normal for Ashtons to do this or did I go on a bad night?...

I have been to Ashtons several times, when admission was only £3. I could understand them trying to make money on the water in that circumstance. At that time the managment did annoy me by not having the air conditioning on. I suspected that this was part of nightclub craft, where they deliberately keep the punters hot so that they will drink more.

and I was told that I could be evicted if I brought my own drink (inc water).

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

It shows lack of consideration for the punters from the management of the venue and makes the dancing organisations that hire the venues look bad. Plus it gets the dancers annoyed!

COME ON!! This is real world. Since when are organisers supposed to be a charity?? If punters start paying an economic rate for events THEN they have a right to complain. Because of the lack of willing of MJers to pay a realistic fee I have to get 95 punters through the door just to break even ..... AND the venue expects to make £X profit on the bar or I lose the venue! What is so hard for dancers to undestand about what it costs to run good events. To put on quailty events costs! If you dancers want to be stuck in your old village hall and pay peanuts... FINE ... but if you want organisers to put on events with large dancefloors, the best sound and ight systems and top DJs .... you have to either pay for it on the door or at the bar ....

Goes off to find a nice dark corner to mumble incoherently to himself....

[Dance Demon]

Originally Posted by Gus

COME ON!! This is real world. Since when are organisers supposed to be a charity?? If punters start paying an economic rate for events THEN they have a right to complain. Because of the lack of willing of MJers to pay a realistic fee I have to get 95 punters through the door just to break even ..... AND the venue expects to make £X profit on the bar or I lose the venue! What is so hard for dancers to undestand about what it costs to run good events. To put on quailty events costs! If you dancers want to be stuck in your old village hall and pay peanuts... FINE ... but if you want organisers to put on events with large dancefloors, the best sound and ight systems and top DJs .... you have to either pay for it on the door or at the bar ....

Goes off to find a nice dark corner to mumble incoherently to himself....

Got to agree with Gus here. Most venues that have a bar, expect to make a profit from it. MJ nights are filled with people who..
1. drove to the venue, so don't drink alcohol
2. Don't want to drink too much alcohol cause it impairs their dancing
Not everyone is keen to pay bar prices for soft drinks. But if everyone was drinking the free water, and not spending money over the bar, the venue owners would soon pull the plug. Good venues are very difficult to come by, and I've seen a few lost because of poor bar takings. Bearing in mind that the venue has to pay wages to bar staff. If you go out for the night clubbing, it costs at least £10 to get into most nightclubs, and the drink isn't always cheap, yet people pay these prices and rarely quibble. Night clubs rarely supply free water either. It's a hard one for promoters, who often have to decide whetherit's worth all the hassle trying to provide a decent venue for people to dance , and get hassle from punters and venue owners......

[Sparkles]

I'm not disagreeing about the profit situation etc., and I'm not sure there's quite such a need to get irate about this - everyone's allowed an opinion. All I'm saying is that paying for tap water doesn't seem on to me and that maybe there should be another alternative to making up some of the short-fall?
At a couple of venues I go to there is no tap water because there is no tap! It's bottled water or bring your own - which seems fair enough to me. I know this may sound a bit backwards but if punters are told that the options are to buy bottled water or something else from the bar, and although are not told 'bring your own bottled water if you like' but are not penalised for doing so, then won't this increase profit margins? In my experience people are too lazy, myself included, to cart around large quantities of water and are less likely to grumble about paying for mineral water than tap water. So don't offer the option of tap water...? Maybe?
OK if this isn't a good solution, fine, but I just feel there has to be another way...
...goes away to put thinking cap on...

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Gus

Maybe this is whole new trend ... but LL has highlighted a key problem with the MJ scene ... that the dancers are tight-wads( ). Given that the MJ dancers are generally fairly affluent it amazes me how hard it is to part them from their cash.

Is this true? Is the average MJ'er "affluent"?

Personally I make sacrifices on other areas of my life; on 'non-essential' goods, services and foods so that I can pay for my dancing. I am on the opposite side of "affluent".
But if you think on it, two classes a week at £6 plus £5 travel and another £5 on food/drink that you wouldn't have spent on that night, and another £15 for a monthly party, and about another £25 per month saving for big events, that's about £170 per month disposable income (about £2K off your yearly income) not including shoes, clothes, smellies,...

I'm just getting depressed let's move onto another topic of conversation.

[lindyloo]

I write in Ashtons defence again.

Ashton's pays a huge amount in Council tax, infact the reason the other 2 dance floors were knocked down was because the venue literally could not survive. The council tax was then £120 000 per year not to mention all the other expenses. I did at one time have all of the figures. The owner said I could keep the hall from being knocked down if I paid him £5000 per week!! (this is all true as I tried everything to save the building, even went to The Prime Minister, but to no avail)

The venue were offered a massive amount for the land and reluctantly (as the building has been in the family a long time) had to sell, but on the proviso they could keep the building they have now.

The rates and bills on our new building are still phenomenal, but I'm willing to do all I can to keep the building. The fact of the matter is however that as the dancers tend not to spend any money over the bar, the venue makes very little and I can't afford the amount they want in rent on a Fri night (especially when they put on 2 bar staff & a person on the door so that we never have any trouble) so I have to agree to certain concessions and 2 of these are that people can not bring in their own drink and that £1 will be charged for water. Hence the reason I, not the venue, will evict people that bring their own water and I feel very strongly about all of this. I have never taken a drink to a venue and would never contemplate doing so.

The moral of the story is if you want this dance floor to survive then you have to buy a drink. It's not an expensive night out £7 on a Friday for 6 hrs of dancing. Even if you bought 3 pints of water it would still be a cheap night out in my book!