Working harder or working smarter

[Clive Long]

Listening to a lot of guff about the "British Opt Out" from the European Working Time Directive (opportunity for pedants if it is called something different).

Basically, the European Ogres in Brussels are trying to force us plucky Englanders, Scotlanders, Walesers and Northern Irelanders to be restricted to working a measly 48 hours per week.

I'm interested in finding out whether people who are in work feel, in comparison to what they were doing 10 years ago, that they are working harder or "smarter".

Is 48 hours working a week excessive?

Should people be able to choose how many hours a week they work?

Do any have personal experience of being obliged to work what they consider to be excessive hours?

In my continual struggle to be PC I recognise that single working mothers (or even fathers) are probably hitting the 80 hours per week when domestic commitments are included.

Do you have some other spin on this subject?

Clive

[Dreadful Scathe]

No one is trying to force anyone to only work 48 hours a weeks, they are trying to force companies to stop bad practice - forcing people to work weekends, overtime at the last minute etc.. you will still be able to choose

[Aleks]

Even though I ticked that people should be able to choose, my current choice is to work max 25 hours a week.

[DianaS]

48 hours a week? Just???


A few years ago France brought in a four day week to reduce unemployment (hthis only effects companies of over a minumun size so small companies aren't affected) BUT ever other weekend you can have a long one off.
Just think of the dance weekends we could have

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

No one is trying to force anyone to only work 48 hours a weeks, they are trying to force companies to stop bad practice - forcing people to work weekends, overtime at the last minute etc.. you will still be able to choose

Then they should do that but they are not

I prefer to work 6 months a year and am happy to work 80 hours a week during that time then take the other 6 months off

But under the new proposals that would be illegal

The boss is not trying to force me to this, I am the boss but it would still be illegal for me to do this

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Then they should do that but they are not

I prefer to work 6 months a year and am happy to work 80 hours a week during that time then take the other 6 months off

But under the new proposals that would be illegal

The boss is not trying to force me to this, I am the boss but it would still be illegal for me to do this

I don't think that's true.

As I understand it, anyone can work any hours they like. *BUT* - under the directive, no-one can be disciplined, discriminated against, or sacked for refusing to work longer than 48 hours. If they have a sanction taken against them they could leave their job and would have a claim for constructive dismissal.

Anyone qualified in law want to comment?

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I don't think that's true.

As I understand it, anyone can work any hours they like. *BUT* - under the directive, no-one can be disciplined, discriminated against, or sacked for refusing to work longer than 48 hours. If they have a sanction taken against them they could leave their job and would have a claim for constructive dismissal.

Anyone qualified in law want to comment?

I'm certainly not qualified to comment

But let's follow the statement / assertion (?) that no one could be disciplined for refusing to work more than 48 hours.

So what was the UK opt out all about? Did that mean it would have been acceptable in the UK to discipline or discriminate against someone who refused to work more than 48 hours? If that is wrong interpretation, what was the opt-out about?

Clive

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I'm certainly not qualified to comment

But let's follow the statement / assertion (?) that no one could be disciplined for refusing to work more than 48 hours.

So what was the UK opt out all about? Did that mean it would have been acceptable in the UK to discipline or discriminate against someone who refused to work more than 48 hours? If that is wrong interpretation, what was the opt-out about?

Clive

Technically, it's not actually a "UK opt-out", it's an opt-out which has mainly been used in the UK. So other countries have it, they just don't use it much.

As I understand it, a company can't discriminate against an existing employee by coercing them to sign the opt-out (and hence coercing them to possibly work long hours).

However, a company can discriminate when recruiting - i.e. they can make signing an opt-out a pre-condition of the job.

Another couple of points:
- Less people in the UK are working 48+ hours now than 8 years ago (down from c.26% in 1997 to around 21% now, as I recall)
- Health and safety regulations still override any opt-out signed.

Hope that helps...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Then they should do that but they are not

I prefer to work 6 months a year and am happy to work 80 hours a week during that time then take the other 6 months off

But under the new proposals that would be illegal

Not quite - I think it's allowed to average out over a year, technically. So your preference is catered for.

(Christ, 80 hours a week? That's my monthly total that is, and that's before deducting essential forum-posting time )

[Dance Demon]

48 hour working directive has been in operation since around 1998. It was brought in to encourage safe working practices, and to prevent companies forcing employees to work excessive hours. The Idea is that employees can work up to 48 hours in any given week, but to work more than this, they have to sign a derrogation form, stating that they are willing to work more than this. 48 hours is a ceiling point, and not compulsory. There are other clauses in it such as, after working for four hours, employees are entitled to a 20 minute break, although this can also be signed away. However other rules such as a full 11 hour rest period between shifts, and one full 24 hour rest period in every week can not be signed away. Unfortunately, most employers only pay lip service to this directive and many just ignore it completely. Worst offenders tend to be the food & drink industry e.g. pubs, restaurants, & hotels. As far as I know, it is illegal to make signing a derrogation form to agree to work more than 48 hours a condition of employment. Seems daft to me to bring in a directive that has loopholes big enough to drive a bus through.

[philsmove]

Seems to be a bit of confusion between existing legislation, which seems to be OK and proposed legislation, which seems, barmy

Even under existing legislating you can be “at work “

Even if you are not doing even much E.g. a night watchman

[Lynn]

I don't know much about this but I did hear a friend talking about it, saying it was causing problems where they worked - in a hospital. And I think that's the sort of places where it could affect - where people work a lot of overnight shifts etc - which can really build up the hours.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

As far as I know, it is illegal to make signing a derrogation form to agree to work more than 48 hours a condition of employment. Seems daft to me to bring in a directive that has loopholes big enough to drive a bus through.

Really? All I know is what I hear on the Today programme, but Mr Humfreys, and Brian something (boss of the TUC), and the CBI boss all seemed to agree this was the case, so I assumed they knew what they were talking about. Always a silly thing to do, I guess, and I certainly don't have the expertise / inclination to find out for sure.

Here's a BBC news link if that helps. Interestingly, workers in Greece work the longest hours of all EU countries - contradicts some sterotypes somewhat.

[TheTramp]

Or how about "Not working at all".

Finished uni. Last exam yesterday. We go back in approximately 4 months and 1 week, on the 19th September.

Smug? Me? Hell yes!!

(Did I mention that I'm off to Australia for 6 of those weeks too? )

[Tessalicious]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Or how about "Not working at all".

I can completely concur with that one - I had my last exam today, now I can just sit back and enjoy the sunshine (or sleep all day dance all night, which also sounds like a plan... ). Anyone who hasn't finished (Ash? Katie?), still thinking of you and hope you get through without a hitch

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Or how about "Not working at all".

Finished uni. Last exam yesterday. We go back in approximately 4 months and 1 week, on the 19th September.

Smug? Me? Hell yes!!

I'm off until August 29th Only got 2 exams in two weeks time, then i'm free-I think i'll take this girls advice and burn my tie Just kidding...

Ashx