ID Cards and National Identity Register

[El Salsero Gringo]

Who thinks the Government's plans are good, and who thinks they're bad?
And who doesn't give a stuff?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Its a pointless waste of money that won't accomplish any of the things it is supposed to. For a bit of background info >go here< its an IT news site but is understandable by all. Theres more spin on the ID issue than 1 million breakdancers on a roundabout.

[Stuart M]

Also, some people may not yet be aware that we'll be asked to pay about £100 for this useless thing. Therefore this becomes a stealth tax...

[Gadget]

Of course, then you must look at the way bank cards etc are going, and the development of RFID and wonder when it all will be combined... don't need barcodes tatooed on your neck: your card holds your bimetrics.

I'm worried about the society that my kids are going to grow up in.

[Dizzy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Of course, then you must look at the way bank cards etc are going, and the development of RFID and wonder when it all will be combined... don't need barcodes tatooed on your neck: your card holds your bimetrics.

I'm worried about the society that my kids are going to grow up in.

I agree, not just for the next generation but the generations after. I think that all this ID card principles may be the first stepping stone to a 'Gattacca' society. Ok, it is a cheesy movie but the basis behind the film is that in the future, society revolves around a DNA register which detemines your whole life, job, class etc. If you have the wrong DNA, you cannot live the life you wish.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Gattaca ? cheesy ? wash your mouth out with dairylea. The main character is Gattaca is a "natural born" in a society where DNA "defects" are removed and fertilization occurs in the lab. Its not even far fetched. Insurance companies already have clauses for all sorts of "defects" people may have, how long till everything is taken into account at some point in your life? ID cards are just the start - apparantly they are not compulsory but you wont be able to get a job without one - and thats just the start of the governments alien logic.

[El Salsero Gringo]

What I find so difficult to understand is exactly *who* thinks it's a good idea. Certainly, no-one actually connected with any of the 'problems' for which it is being touted as a solution. And the more people understand what the Government is *actually* planning the less they like it.

[Stuart]

My view is that if the Government want us to carry these, they should be bearing the cost of us having to carry them.

I don't know as well if they have considered the chaos that will ensue when everyone turns up at once to have their fingerprints/iris scan taken.

Also, if they are supposed to protect us against terrorism, how come all the train bombers in Madrid all had valid up to date National ID cards?

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Stuart

My view is that if the Government want us to carry these, they should be bearing the cost of us having to carry them.

Unfortunately, the only money they have is ours.

[Ballroom queen]

forgive my total ignorance on this, but how does it work in other european countries, where they get to travel between countries in europe with an ID card rather than a passport?

[azande]

Originally Posted by Ballroom queen

forgive my total ignorance on this, but how does it work in other european countries, where they get to travel between countries in europe with an ID card rather than a passport?

In Italy you can get an ID that allows you to travel abroad (only to other EU countries) but it is not the default.

In Italy you get your ID when you are 16, and you must have it with you at all times. If yoiu get stopped by the Police for whatever reason and you can't produce it, they have the power to take you to the police station and keep you there until they ascertain your identity.

Police and Carabinieri have the power to stop and search anyone, whether you are just walking down the street or you are driving a car, something that I don't think exist here in the UK to the same extent.

[Ballroom queen]

Originally Posted by azande

In Italy you can get an ID that allows you to travel abroad (only to other EU countries) but it is not the default.

In Italy you get your ID when you are 16, and you must have it with you at all times. If yoiu get stopped by the Police for whatever reason and you can't produce it, they have the power to take you to the police station and keep you there until they ascertain your identity.

Police and Carabinieri have the power to stop and search anyone, whether you are just walking down the street or you are driving a car, something that I don't think exist here in the UK to the same extent.

do they have to pay for the ID card?

[RogerR]

looking at the concept of a card, what's to stop someone stealing a card, God knows how many credit/debit cards are stolen/lost annually in the UK.

Looking back into history look at the security the german nazi machine thought they had in Enigma, and how the SOE etc produced and purloined the cards and permits needed for life in axis occupied teritory.

If there are 60 million UK residents and there is a 0.01% failure rate in the system thats a lot of dodgy IDs people with two IDs etc If the cards have digital info on them they will be so easily cloned (cf, CDs ) and every place that uses the cards will need a card reader so there will be spares in an engineers toolcase then the encoding will creep into the public domain (cf. unlock any mobile phone £5 in many local shops) and cards with some good and some bad data will soon be available. ID card copiers will become as common as cd copiers at "computer fairs" and "car boots". The value of today's system is that it is held diversely by several Govt depts who's records compliment each others producing effectively a check bit often.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by RogerR

looking at the concept of a card, what's to stop someone stealing a card, God knows how many credit/debit cards are stolen/lost annually in the UK.

But a biometric id card with your own fingerprints and iris information is unlikely to be of use to anyone else. Assuming of course everywhere has a card reader they can check and dont just go by the picture, which sees likely to me. Your worry is justified i think.

Originally Posted by RogerR

ID card copiers will become as common as cd copiers at "computer fairs" and "car boots".

"No way", is the simple answer to that. CD copying is a minor offence - you lose your equipment and get fined but thats it (generally). It is so widespread because the profits far outweigh the risks and being caught a couple of times is no big deal. I cant imagine copying biometric ID cards, when they are billed as an anti-terrorist device, will get you a few thousand pound fine! Try several years in prison at the least - its probably more serious than copying passports are now. And how useful would someone elses biometrics be ?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

"No way", is the simple answer to that. CD copying is a minor offence - you lose your equipment and get fined but thats it (generally). It is so widespread because the profits far outweigh the risks and being caught a couple of times is no big deal. I cant imagine copying biometric ID cards, when they are billed as an anti-terrorist device, will get you a few thousand pound fine! Try several years in prison at the least - its probably more serious than copying passports are now. And how useful would someone elses biometrics be ?

?? So what about the scanners that read information from bank cards and can replicate them? They are in use just now by "the criminal element".
Reading the biometric ID - well, that's going to be common technology so that folk can check it. So the format the information is stored is going to be common-knowledge as well. Security companies (securicor etc) and large corps will probably want to addopt a similar system for their own staff, so writers should be relativly simple to get access to. You can already print photos and stuff onto ID cards... I think that the paper technology of a passport is much harder to duplicate than a card is going to be.

What are the checks going to be in place to aquire a new ID, or a lost one? What's going to stop a "Fake" ID card actually being a 'real' one with an assumed identity?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

"No way", is the simple answer to that. CD copying is a minor offence - you lose your equipment and get fined but thats it (generally). It is so widespread because the profits far outweigh the risks and being caught a couple of times is no big deal. I cant imagine copying biometric ID cards, when they are billed as an anti-terrorist device, will get you a few thousand pound fine! Try several years in prison at the least - its probably more serious than copying passports are now. And how useful would someone elses biometrics be ?

It's a common misconception (and one that the Government like to promote) that slapping a heavy penalty on something is equivalent to preventing it from happening. Undoubtedly, ID cards will be forged. The danger is that (unlike things like bank statements and utility bills) we are being conned into believing them to be 100% reliable. (Again this is by a Government that is billing them as *the answer* to ID questions) and so the value of a forged card increases because no one will think to question them - nor will the government be able to admit the possibility.

As for what use is a forged card: well, biometric are terribly unreliable (otherwise why have the card at all? Just use the biometric at every point where you would otherwise need the card.) If the biometric doesn't match, that doesn't really tell you anything very useful.

The big danger I see with this system is the Identity Register coupled with the Government's (statutory) abilility to invalidate cards at will. At any point in the future an administration can make you a non-person by invalidating your card on their database. Instantly, you lose access to your bank account, to you credit cards potentially, to the ability to travel (or any other instance where the authorities will have persuaded a somnolent public that ID cards have to be presented to prevent 'terrorism'.)

The whole ID card proposal is a nexus of deceit and lies, all built one upon the next and we are about to sleepwalk into it.

If anyone wants some practical suggestions which might help prevent it, drop me a PM.

[RogerR]

in the 80s CDs were the "perfect medium" for music cos they were un copyable and gave perfect music sound, ten years ago mobile phones could be barred from all networks to prevent re-use of a stolen phone.
CD copies are now down to 17p DIY in 5 minutes, a new id for a mobile phone is now £5 in prob 100 local shops in my London Borough.

If the security on an ID card is as usefull then full editing software will be retail available within 10 years. then you will be able to chose your name and records (health and criminal) add your own biometrics and a new credit rating and get living the double life again. Buy a pair of semis and live out of the front door with the right name on the bell!!!!!!!

[David Bailey]

Is no-one going to stand up for these things? I'm in the anti-camp myself, otherwise I would; presumably there must be some sort of a case to be made for them...

I'm sceptical as to whether ID cards will get through politically, the margin of rebellion last time was (as I recall) greater than the current Labour majority - so unless lots of rebels turn Blairite, I doubt it's a goer.

Blair's political capital is wasting away by the day, unless Brown gets seriously behind it (and why should he?), I'd give it less than 50% chance of getting through anyway.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

It's a common misconception (and one that the Government like to promote) that slapping a heavy penalty on something is equivalent to preventing it from happening. Undoubtedly, ID cards will be forged. The danger is that (unlike things like bank statements and utility bills) we are being conned into believing them to be 100% reliable. (Again this is by a Government that is billing them as *the answer* to ID questions) and so the value of a forged card increases because no one will think to question them - nor will the government be able to admit the possibility.

I totally agree, i wasnmt suggesting it wouldnt just that the "CD copying" analogy didnt cut it. It would not happen to the scale of CD copying - its just now profitable enough - it will be big league criminals who do this. Ironic I think that ID cards are billed as "anti-terrorist" , when copying and circumventing are likely to be done by the sort of criminals who may end up supporting terrorists with the profits. After all, the government is already quite happy to proclaim illegal downloads and cd/video copying as sources of terrorists revenue .

Originally Posted by El Big Brother

As for what use is a forged card: well, biometric are terribly unreliable (otherwise why have the card at all? Just use the biometric at every point where you would otherwise need the card.) If the biometric doesn't match, that doesn't really tell you anything very useful.

The idea presumably is that you match the person and the name to a database that as a record of who they are. The idea being that copying someones card is useless because it wont match the "unique" database entry . Biometric information isnt that unique though and the equipment to read is is not perfect. Also there is no possibility that you and your card will be checked against a database of everyone with an ID - you'll be checked against your card. If you just have to match your card then yes copying an ID would be useful, with your biometrics on it instead.

Maybe they'll shoot anyone who "fails" the biometric test at US customs!

Originally Posted by gadget

?? So what about the scanners that read information from bank cards and can replicate them? ..etc..