Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?

[Gadget]

I dissagree; "Show Off" is exactly the term I meant when portraying what an outsider would imagine the dance to portray.

Admitedly, there is an element of display and entertainment in the dance ( ).
But are you there to "show off" to your partner, your audience, your ghosts, your god, your self, or no-one?

Back on-topic {well, almost: if you don't like the name "Modern Jive" or "Ceroc", what is there?}...
I like the connentations in "Jive"; it also is an acknowledgement of the dance's roots... how about "Freestyle Jive"? or just "Free Jive"?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
I think the 'Big Book' is a red herring .... there are many 'non-ceroc' moves in the book (i.e. classic salsa, Tango, RnR, Swing moves) that Ceroc has just assimilated .... so can the book be regareded as Ceroc(TM) moves ... dont think so

Disagree - the law seems to be that nobody "owns" a dance move. If they are in the Ceroc book, they can be described as a Ceroc move. That description does not mean that they are not also Walts, Tango, Swing etc moves as well.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gadget
I dissagree; "Show Off" is exactly the term I meant when portraying what an outsider would imagine the dance to portray.

Admitedly, there is an element of display and entertainment in the dance ( ).
But are you there to "show off" to your partner, your audience, your ghosts, your god, your self, or no-one?

Back on-topic {well, almost: if you don't like the name "Modern Jive" or "Ceroc", what is there?}...
I like the connentations in "Jive"; it also is an acknowledgement of the dance's roots... how about "Freestyle Jive"? or just "Free Jive"?

Mostly when I have heard the expression "show off" it has followed "Don't". However I also believe that showing off, exhibitionism, display and entertainment are all components in making the dance form what it is. I also believe that we should not force those elements on those that do it just for a bit of one-on-one social interaction.

I have always preferred the misnomer French Jive, but "Free Jive" would get my vote anyday. Someone with philanthropic intentions should nip down to the trademark office right away with that, before someone with commercial ones does it.

[Will]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
My own opinion is that we need a new name for the actual dance we do. We know it's a variation of jive but is 'modern' the right prefix for now and the future. I think not. I rather like French Jive, I now know it's not French (thanks Franck) but it is rather like Argentinian Tango, it sounds exotic. And anyone doing French Jive is bound to be considered a fantastic lover

I know what you're saying. Personally I think that any dance form that uses the word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood).

As a separate and totally open question, do people think that the term "modern jive" would have come into existance if "ceroc" hadn't been made into a trademark?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Will
As a separate and totally open question, do people think that the term "modern jive" would have come into existance if "ceroc" hadn't been made into a trademark?

Yes. Because of the LeRoc name. Certainly, in some parts of the country, there is no Ceroc, and has either never been any, or hasn't been any for some time.

There has always had to be a 'common name' to distinguish what is the same dance. I think that 'free jive' isn't a bad name. Although, maybe the use of the word 'modern' does help to cancel out the connatations of being old fashioned?

Steve

[Will]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yes. Because of the LeRoc name. Certainly, in some parts of the country, there is no Ceroc, and has either never been any, or hasn't been any for some time.

That's a good point. Leroc has existed since 1982 I believe, yet Ceroc didn't become copywrited till around 1990? On the other hand, I don't know about Brighton, but isn't it the case that that other well known Leroc enclave, Bristol, used to call it ceroc until the trademark came in? Maybe someone can confirm this?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Although, maybe the use of the word 'modern' does help to cancel out the connatations of being old fashioned?

The point being that people have been using the word "modern" for so long that it no longer is true to the dictionary definition of "Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date" because "recent times" could be anything from the last 60 years.

To respond to Will's comment "Personally I think that any dance form that uses the
word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood)."
True, this is the image it would portray, but the precursor should lend a different spin on the image - trying to say "yes, this is sort of what we do, but with a more up-to-date flavour."

How about "Pop Jive" or "Jive Pop" ? {crass commercialism here we come!}

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
I know what you're saying. Personally I think that any dance form that uses the word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood).

I like the sound of the jive bit. It makes the dance sound more macho than ballroom - which sounds a bit camp for your average man (but not me, want to see my modern and latin medals?). Even Hells Angels jive and nobody would call them camp - well not twice anyway

It would be nice if we could all agree on a single name. Maybe we should think up a few more then have a poll - although that does sound a bit too democratic

So far I think we've got

Modern Jive
French Jive
Free Jive
Pop Jive
Freestyle Jive

Any more to add? How about some that don't have 'jive' in the name?

[Dr. Feelgood]

Originally posted by Gadget
How about "Pop Jive" or "Jive Pop" ? {crass commercialism here we come!}

Then we'd need a different name for what goes on at events which don't play 'pop' (of the up to the minute variety) but where the style of dance is largely the same same as that which goes on at most 'jive' events.

The 'problem' is that the same form of dance is danced to many different forms of music so the name of the dance really needs to be kept separate from the music.

I use the word 'jive' but I'm aware that to the uninitiated this will probably conjure up 50s, R'n'R images... and while this is part of the story, it isn't the whole story by any means. So perhaps 'jive' isn't the best word... but as soon as you try to tie one musical form to the word you exclude all others.

I would suggest "Universal Jive"... but I'm not keen on that either. The fact that the dance we dance is danced to many different musical styles is not a special feature of the dance. As long as the time signature is suitable then you can dance any dance to any music.

Perhaps the answer is to educate. Jive is cleary alive and well. It's hardly an underground phenomenon so it seems a little surprising that the general public is not more aware that jive hasn't gone away and is being danced regularly by 1000s of people, to many different styles of music including the 'music' of the present day.

Then we could simply call it what it is.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Modern Jive
French Jive
Free Jive
Pop Jive
Freestyle Jive

Any more to add? How about some that don't have 'jive' in the name?

Disco Jive
Upbeat Jive
Jivalsa

I would think that more of the younger persons being sought for todays dance scene are probaly more aware of what Salsa is, than Jive. They know at least that Salsa is danced to a Latin rythmn, but as said previously, "jive" with ANY name attachments, still gives a 40's - 50's image.

Making a new name for a dance that 1000's of dancers already know is a bit superfluous really. I think education through media exposure is probably the best way, unless a compilation of names already in use actually fits the bill.

Celerocitz perhaps ?

[Will]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I like the sound of the jive bit.

And how old are you??? (no offence - and hec, I'm no spring chicken either!). That does kind of make my point!

What we need is a name / image that is gonna get Ceroc / MJ done in Justin Timberlake videos for example, the same way you see Hip Hop, Street Jazz, and Salsa in that kind of thing...

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
And how old are you??? (no offence - and hec, I'm no spring chicken either!). That does kind of make my point!

I am 47 but I'm still too young to have done jive in my youth. We all did muggle dancing at my youth club. Jive was my dad's era.

The reason I like the sound of jive is that is doesn't sound camp. But I agree that something with jive in it might not be popular with people under 55. Which is why my post went on to ask if anyone could think of something which didn't contain the word jive. The alternative is to call the dance Ceroc, the problem with calling it Ceroc is that nobody but Ceroc can do that.

So we need a universal name. And I'm suggesting a poll because I know that people think differently from me. And some people are more creative than me with language so they might come up with something that captures the imagination and sticks

[Dreadful Scathe]

Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is !

"Flared Trousers" are still called the same thing and that still has connotations of the 70's to me, but clearly not to the people who wear them. Why should "jive" be any different.

Maybe we should rename "Lindy Hop" too that has connotations of 30's black and white films for me .

[bigdjiver]

Roc Fusion?

[Dr. Feelgood]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is !

Exactly

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is !

Not sure that I agree DS (by the way, not heard from you for a while ) Jive is in my minds eye a 50's style dance similar to R'n'R .... modern Ceroc is a synthesis of a very different feel incorporating moves (and styling) from Blues, Salsa, Swing etc. Modern Jive may have its roots in classic Jive, but its now a distant cousin than a close relation (IMO).

[Martin]

Certainly NOT French Jive Have you seen the French jive? It is very basic and a fair way off what is danced in the UK. It has come a LONG way since then.

How about English Jive - after all that's what it is, Jive developed in England

Other suggestions Dirty Latin Jive (Melbourne - not sure mainstream Ceroc is as "dirty" as those Melbournites though)

Mamboroc (Newcastle, Australia)

I actually like English Jive, after all that is where it was developed, the French do not say they are doing American jive do they?

[Dance Demon]

Why do some people have a phobia about the word "Jive"..?
The basic moves that we all do are jive moves. there may be more blues and latin styling creeping in to it, but it is still jive. A quick comparison.....Rugby Union as it is played today is very much different to how it was played 20 years ago, it has become a much more technical and tactical game. It is still called Rugby Union, despite the changes. Ceroc, Leroc etc were branded as French Jive, when I first started dancing. yes things have morphed a bit since then, and modern Jve is probably the best description of what we do IMHO

[ChrisA]

Heaven forbid we ever agree on a name.

We'd have hardly anything to argue about then

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Heaven forbid we ever agree on a name.

Fair enough Chris

Originally posted by Martin
How about English Jive - after all that's what it is, Jive developed in England................./snip/
I actually like English Jive, after all that is where it was developed.............. the French do not say they are doing American jive do they?

First of all........NO!
Secondly.....heard you the first time
Thirdly.........the French can say what they like, they have much better accents