Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lou
... I went to my cousin's wedding and did double trouble with a guy from LeJive & Rachel here... whilst surrounded by a ring of Lindyhoppers & Swallerinas...

You would be doing double CeLeRoc-style Jive in a Swallindy Jam Circle. I could be more specific, but that depends on your cousin's religion...

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
I could be more specific, but that depends on your cousin's religion...

Are we still talking about Gus' trousers here

Franck.

[TheTramp]

David

I hate to be pedantic ( )

But surely, it'd be LeCeroc style (since ceroc came first).

Oh, and if the were all wearing tight leotards, then you'd be able to be more specific!!

Steve

[TheTramp]

Great minds yet again Franck.....

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Great minds yet again Franck.....

Where???

[TheTramp]

Good point yet again David.

Maybe it should be 'Fools seldom differ'.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou


That's why we need the more generic Modern/French Jive handle ... you can't just say the dance is "ceroc".

Echoing earlier (and subsequent posts) .. WHY NOT?

Ceroc IS the original name for the style of dance as was introdcued to the UK. 'Modern Jive', so I'm led to believe, was a phrase invented far more recently by a group of instructors who wanted to compete against Ceroc ..... Ask the majority of the population what the dance is and they'll say CEROC ...... quad erat domunstratum (or something like that)

What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in London

[Scot]

I think this thread is done !

[TheTramp]

Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.

It was done by 2 middle aged women who really didn't have any idea about what they were doing.

They asked me to teach for them, and I turned down the 'opportunity'.

Needless to say, it didn't last for long.

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Lou
If the moves are the same, though? Which, in essence, they are.

That's why we need the more generic Modern/French Jive handle ... you can't just say the dance is "ceroc".

Again I am pleading ignorance, but where did LeRoc originate ?
What is the difference (in moves, not methology) between LeRoc and Ceroc and WCSwing and Jive and Rock & Roll and Merengue and Salsa...? Never mind the music they are danced to, or the rhythm - but the actual moves themselves.

As far as I can see, they all have almost identical 'moves' and the only difference between them is footwork: If you do ceroc with wholey salsa footwork, then it's salsa. If you do ceroc with wholly WCSwing footwork, it's WCSwing...
IMHO, ceroc is defined precisley by not being defined - there are no constraints on footwork, no constraints on timing, no default 'reset' position and no constraints on music. So the question really is "is the absence of a distinct style definable as a style in it's self ?"

{Tramp: if ceroc came 1st, then shouldn't it be CeRoc ?}
{Edit}
Scott: Naa not done yet: there is nothing else on the forum worth arguing about

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus
What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in London

*lol* T'is true it's mainly down South West, Wales, etc....

It's funny how CEROC doesn't manage to gain a foothold here, even the Bath, Swindon, etc classes have gone to Ginger Jive now. I'm not sure why it's the case, I'm sure. LeRoc classes in Bristol and Newport/Cardiff are incredibly popular, as are Salsa type classes, so it's not as if we don't dance...

So no one around these parts dances "ceroc". Sorry Mister - we don't have that strange newfangled thing round yer..... Must be something to do with you city folks!

[TheTramp]

I think this thread is done !

I guess not....

Steve

[Lou]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.

What's one of them, Steve? I thought you only got franchises in CEROC?

[TheTramp]

What's one of them, Steve? I thought you only got franchises in CEROC?

Good question. Is it still a franchise, if you don't have to get permission (or pay) to join, but still use the name. If not, what would you call it then?

Steve

[Lou]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Good question. Is it still a franchise, if you don't have to get permission (or pay) to join, but still use the name. If not, what would you call it then?

Actually - to be serious for a moment - this is what I think is the main difference between Ceroc & LeRoc. As far as I'm aware, LeRoc came about when some people wanted to break away from what they perceived as the restrictions imposed by the Ceroc organisation -i.e. having to pay for a Franchise, signing away rights to teach even friends, the control & monitoring from Ceroc HQ, etc... And so the independant spirit of LeRoc was born. LeRoc was the first of these Ceroc spin-offs, and isn't a particular dance in its own right. Then followed LeJive, Mo'Jive, etc.... It's all basically the same thing, as you know.

Anybody can set up a Modern/French Jive class & call it LeRoc (or any of the other non-trademarked names). Perhaps I'd call it a "genre", "style" or a "label", but definitely not a Franchise.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
'Modern Jive', so I'm led to believe, was a phrase invented far more recently by a group of instructors who wanted to compete against Ceroc
.....
What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in London

Funny that - I used to go to Leroc classes at the Charles Peguy Centre in Leicester Square in 1986. Back then everyone called it French Jive - even those who went to Ceroc classes.

I don't know when the term 'Modern' Jive started. I first heard it in the mid-90s. I always assumed that 'French' Jive fell out of favour because it was no longer anything like what they did in France.

Originally posted by Gadget
What is the difference (in moves, not methology) between LeRoc and Ceroc and WCSwing and Jive and Rock & Roll

If you want a history of swing dance - go to http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/d5timlne.htm.

Ceroc and Leroc teach the same dance. I'll call it Modern Jive - I don't care what anyone else calls it!
Ballroom Jive is a formalised version of East Coast Swing. Rock'n'Roll is basically the same as East Coast Swing, as is 6-count Lindy.

There are 3 main difference between Modern Jive and other forms of swing:
- Modern Jive has no 'recovery' step where you do nothing. Eg in ECS you have a rock step, in Lindy you have a twist twist, and in WCS you have an anchor step.
- Modern Jive also emphasises the down beat - all other swing dances emphasise the up-beat.
- Finally Modern Jive has no standard length of moves. Other dances are predominantly made up of 6 or 8 count patterns.

The main difference between ECS and WCS is that WCS is done in a slot, whereas ECS is circular.

All dances allow improvisation, but is is far more frequent in WCS.

All dances allow just as much freedom to develop your own style.

All dances have the same opportunity for musical interpretation. However each dance suits different tempos - WCS for slower music, ECS for faster music, and Modern Jive in the middle.

And virtually all the moves you can do in one dance will work in another. (And anyone who has ever danced with me knows I mix up all the moves all the time.)

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.

Well actualy ... there was a thriving LeRoc club opposite the ancient mecca of Ceroc the Central club.

For those of you too young to know the legend...well here it is...

Once upon a time in a place far, far away (i.e. London) there was a magical place (The Central club) where all the greatest dancers (both in terms of style and ego) came to play. They were taught by the greatest teachers in the land and lo it was found to be good. Then a dark evil descended (Property Developers) and the magical place was taken away and its like will never be seen again....but the legend lives on..

Sufficeth to say this was a place where Viktor, Mike Allard and other dance genuii (OK spelt wrong) taught on a regular basis. It was quite simply The Best ... with some attitides to match. It was there where I started to dance ... where these great teacher where just another teacher who's moves I couldn't do and my only comments on seeing Nigel and Nina dancing was ..."who's that odd chap with the silly hat"

ANYWAY ... across the road was the YMCA and a few mates dragged me across there to do some similar dancing (later I found it to be LeRoc. Similar moves except that after the grand sum of 4 weeks of lessons I was being taught hip-hops and 1st move jumps .. SCARY!

I think the female teahcer was actualy the lass who made the LeRoc video ... remember she moved to the US shortly after ... nothing to do woth me dancing at her class I hope!

Sorry for digressing a bit ... well quite a lot really:sorry

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
...after the grand sum of 4 weeks of lessons I was being taught hip-hops and 1st move jumps .. SCARY!

So - Ceroc did pick up a few things from Leroc...

[TheTramp]

Uh huh. I've seen both of those moves taught by ceroc teachers in normal weekly classes. Have to say that if they're taught well (which I'm sure that in most cases they are), and the dangers of doing them on crowded dancefloors are emphasized, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be. Neither of those are particularly dangerous moves - done in the right circumstances, and done properly.

Of course, you are going to have people doing them who have only been dancing 4 weeks, and are in their first intermediate class. But I'm not sure how you'd avoid that. Besides, I've seen people who've been dancing for a matter of weeks who are far better some of those who've been dancing for years!! It's pretty scary in some of those cases...

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
If you want a history of swing dance ~snip~

And so the oracle once again quenches the thirst for knowledge
Cheers