Someone on the Tube needs their hand shaken...

[Will]

Originally Posted by ElaineB

I'm sorry for this Guy and his family and I do not believe the Police thought - 'oh look, there is someone who we would like to shoot - he is no doubt innocent, but lets blow his brains out anyway!' The poor fellow must have been giving the wrong signals by whatever he did - and has been said, we do not know what was said, or who ran!

The point is that he and the Policemen who shot him are all the victims of Terrorism.


Elaine

Again, have some Rep!

[Dizzy]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Like it or not, the profile of the bombers is mostly young, male, asian in appearance, likely to be carrying a rucksack, likely to be getting a bit agitated when on public transport.

Muslims and non-muslims alike should be on the lookout for people fitting the profile, and maybe that would increase the chances of spotting the next perpetrators before the next carnage.

This is nothing to do with racism. If the bombers were from a different culture, I, a white guy with a big nose, would be only too happy to be stopped and searched every day in the interests of catching the buggers.

I'd also be more than happy to get one of those transparent rucksack thingies too.

I completely agree. I think Muslims and non Muslims alike should be looking out for these guys, not thinking racially every time the bombers' descriptions appear.

These bombers are the enemy - they are the ones making religion such a society obsession.

[bigdjiver]

I have a wicked sense of humour, sometimes so inappropriate that it shames me. Those pictures exceeded my limits.

If I heard “Armed Police, stop or I shoot” behind me I might assume that it was directed at the crazy guy with a gun that I was running away from.

I have not said a word against the policeman, given his mindset he should be regarded as a hero.

I speak against policy. The question for us all is whether "innocent until proven guilty" is a policy worth us all risking our lives for? Are we willing to accept the risk of dying because a policemen tries to restrain or disable a suspect instead of killing him?

The police stopped me for the third week running on my way home from the night shift at 2am. I knew that they ran they ran a three shift system too, and what the car slowing down beside me meant. I instantly walked over to the car and opened my bag to show my sandwich case. Most of my fellow workmates were foreigners. Should I be prepared to accept that, if they now behaved like me, they could be shot dead?

If I expect police officers to risk their lives protecting our liberties, should I not be prepared to risk my own?

I want my policemen to try and take such flimsily based suspects alive.

as for the bombers, another verse ran:

In your name
In your name
Great God almighty, they do it in your name.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Of course it's a tragedy; I never said it wasn't.

However, if the dead guy had turned out to be a terrorist, with bombs under his jacket, only moments away from killing twenty or more people in a packed tube carriage (and why not also take a moment to think about the prospect of that), we would all be applauding the copper in question for his bravery and fine judgement.

Actually, I'd still be asking how the heck they managed to let a suspected bomber get onto the tube in the first place. If he had been a bomber with a trigger device, I think it unlikely the police actions (as described) would have prevented him setting it off.

I do think there has been a policy failure, but that failure was in what happened between Jean Charles de Menezes leaving that block of flats and him approaching at the tube. Not that I actually know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that once you've let a suspected bomber get into a crowded public place, the police's options become very limited. At the level of alert we're talking about, there isn't much a suspect can do that couldn't be a prelude to setting off his device. It's not hard for a bomber to set up a trigger that goes off when he puts his hands up, for example. And the bomber has had time to think about exactly what he will do if confronted. So the police are going to be very nervous. Conversely, innocent people haven't planned what to do, and you can't tell how they will react when things go down. After all, it's not the rational part of the brain that reacts to sudden, unexpected danger; we've all heard of the "fight-or-flight" response - only in this circumstance, both responses will get you killed.

When I heard what had happened (even before the revelation the man killed was innocent - at this stage I was more bothered at losing a potential source of information), I wondered whether it would have been better to stage a 3am raid. Much less likely to encounter someone ready to set off a device, and therefore much more likely to be able to get a live prisoner. Interesting that that seems to be more-or-less what has happened this week.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

DS, you're making some fairly substantial claims about something (as far as I know) you didn't witness. I don't know where you got all this information from - particularly about whether the police were identifiable (all plainclothes, I thought), whether a warning was shouted, or whether the man knew enough English to have understood it.

Indeed I am making substantial claims and I think they stand up too.

Police are identifiable in any country not just by their uniform and carrying of guns but also by their general manner. Especially armed police. Plainclothes doenst change that one bit. The dead man was from Brazil, he probably spot them instantly - but possibly ran because of it.

The police here do not normally carry guns, 'stop armed police' MUST be shouted I believe when guns are visible and 8 bullets fired means visibility was fairly high. Also, there is nothing to say the man was retarded and shouting the word 'STOP' works in any language because of the way it is said and the fact that is clearly a command. Think about this for a second* if someone shouted 'LIPS' the same way they would shout stop (loudly and agressively), you would likely turn to see who was giving you the command. He may have ignored it of course. Not clever.

Saying that though, I really just wanted to argue to get a few more opinions from people . I agree with you in principle; the stories are a collection of circumstantial evidence that add up to the police doing everything by the book. Now that I read a newspaper today and picked up on the dead mans cousins story, I hear she says that he had something like a denim jacket on and used a ticket to get through the barrier. As she herself heard that from the police until they 'changed their story' we can only guess at what actually happened, hopefully from some honest actual eye witnessess.




* 'think for a second' one of my favourite insulting phrases that suggests you weren't thinking before

[Ash]

MAN IN TUBE BOMB CARRIAGE SAID POLICE TOLD HIM THE BOMB WAS UNDER THE TRAIN

"The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag," he said

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news...79a86926f9.lpf

[Ash]

http://www.legitgov.org/cctv_image_o...ts_240705.html

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Ash

http://www.legitgov.org/cctv_image_o...ts_240705.html

Cute. But I'd like to think that if someone went to the trouble of faking that image, they'd have been more careful than to leave a raling in the wrong place. It just looks like some detailing on his jacket, to me.

Same with the 'faked' moon landing pictures. The things that people point out as evidence for them being faked are so obvious that anyone who was faking them would have noticed and removed them.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Cute. But I'd like to think that if someone went to the trouble of faking that image, they'd have been more careful than to leave a raling in the wrong place. It just looks like some detailing on his jacket, to me.

Additionally - I have several years experience with software for compositing and effects, and I can't see any way of compositing someone into that image in such a way that the railing "error" happens unless you actually did so on purpose. Any rotoscope/keying work would normally be on the man you're putting into the scene - so it's completely illogical to have made an error that displays the railing. Far more likely IMHO to be an artifact caused by the recording and/or compression methods.

[Jive Brummie]

The rules of engagement, of which these police officers will have been bound by are there to protect the individual carrying them out when appearing in a court of law.

When obeying these rules, if one thinks by giving a verbal warning you may in effect cause harm to either yourself or another individual you may open fire without said warning...in this case, not sure if it happened that way, but it would have been acceptable.

The rules were stiffened after Private Lee Clegg opened fire on a car with people in it over in Ireland some years ago. The car had driven through the road block of which Clegg was manning and he continued to shoot, even though the car was classed as no longer being a threat. He shot and he killed...he was sentenced and jailed.

Interestingly enough, some time later he was released.....and promoted.

That doesn't really have much relevance to this case but it's there to highlight that the person whom the public perceive as being the good guy sometimes does get shafted when carrying out a very tense, split second job of which these police were also doing. Yes it was an unfortunate occurence but I can't believe that anybody in London would be so daft to bolt when shouted to stop by police at this current time.

J x

[Ash]

http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.co...8131/30339.htm

[Graham W]

Why don't we just get out of Iraq...?

G

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

... to highlight that the person whom the public perceive as being the good guy sometimes does get shafted when carrying out a very tense, split second job of which these police were also doing.

I think we have to accept that Johnny-on-the-spot has to make guesses in treacherous situations, and second-guessing them in hindsight is seldom right. It does seem likely that this was a decision made on racial and sectarian grounds, and on the fact that the victim did not stop. I do not think that having law-makers and law-enforcers making decisions on grounds of race and religion will make our society safer.

If we are going to have a policy of shooting anybody that fails to stop when ordered to do so, and who is a danger to the public, then it follows that motorists who try to flee should be shot.

Personally I found myself in a stolen Bentley at the age of seven, being driven by our local tearaway aged eleven. ( I am not sure if that supports my point, or destroys it. )

Yes it was an unfortunate occurence but I can't believe that anybody in London would be so daft to bolt when shouted to stop by police at this current time.

J x

I have the suspicion that there would be people moving away in all directions if they heard "armed police", and thinking, probably like the victim, "He will not shoot me, I have not done anything that bad."

This all smacks of "blame the victim".

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Graham W

Why don't we just get out of Iraq...?

G

To save 167,456 lives if USA and uk moved out tomorrow, next question

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

If we are going to have a policy of shooting anybody that fails to stop when ordered to do so, and who is a danger to the public, then it follows that motorists who try to flee should be shot.

If that motorist is driving a car full of explosives and is on his way to blow up his or her car, him or herself and a whole load of innocent people to boot - then yes - I would like them shot dead, as long as that's the best way to foil the plan. In which case, as soon as possible, if you please.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Cute. But I'd like to think that if someone went to the trouble of faking that image, they'd have been more careful than to leave a raling in the wrong place. It just looks like some detailing on his jacket, to me...

The guy in the foreground has a similar light band near his wrist. I agree with David franklin too. IMO the "railing" is more likely to be the fake, although I do not believe that there is one.

Having seen the amazing picture of the people getting off the top deck of the bus after the top had been ripped off it, I could understand if people could not believe that either.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The guy in the foreground has a similar light band near his wrist. I agree with David franklin too. IMO the "railing" is more likely to be the fake, although I do not believe that there is one.

Ah but of course, the true conspiracy theorist would argue that the person who faked the photo *wanted* the fakery to be spotted, to get a message out to those people who are 'in the know' about 'what's going on.'

(Cue Twilight Zone music)

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

If that motorist is driving a car full of explosives and is on his way to blow up his or her car, him or herself and a whole load of innocent people to boot - then yes - I would like them shot dead. As soon as possible, if you please.

So would I. The questions are, knowing nothing of the cargo, if a white guy speeds away do you chase him? If it is a coloured guy do you shoot him?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

So would I. The questions are, knowing nothing of the cargo, if a white guy speeds away do you chase him? If it is a coloured guy do you shoot him?

The obvious question is how much do you need to know about what's in the car - and and how sure do you need to be about what you do know - before it's considered legitimated to shoot first and ask questions later.

I don't know the answers. In general I have some trust in those whose job it is to make those decisions, and I can't say that anything that's happened over the last month has made me question that. You might feel differently though?

[Ash]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...536751,00.html