Attitudes to Gay men...

[Heather]

Can't wait to see that.........on second thoughts nah!!!!

Heather,

[TheTramp]

Yeah. You might actually have quite a long wait there

I can hear the sighs of relief all the way down here in Edinburgh now!

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

channel 4 could make an entire TV series on that alone

[MartinHarper]

I continue to feel that "homophobic" is an unfortunate word, as it implies a degree of irrational fear, whereas in reality we are often talking about a lack of comfort, or an element of sexual discrimination.
In some absolute sense, I think the dance world would be a better place without that discomfort and discrimination. Still, you don't get there from here by being aggressive and judgemental about it.

Given the topic, I suppose I should sign...
-Lucy

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I continue to feel that "homophobic" is an unfortunate word, as it implies a degree of irrational fear, whereas in reality we are often talking about a lack of comfort, or an element of sexual discrimination.
In some absolute sense, I think the dance world would be a better place without that discomfort and discrimination. Still, you don't get there from here by being aggressive and judgemental about it.

I am afraid that "homophobic" exactly the right word for the attitude of some men to gay men. At some MJ events I've experienced quite a lot of irrational homophobic reactions and I'm not even gay.

And the reaction has never been irrational fear, more like irrational aggression or anger

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

-Lucy

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I am afraid that "homophobic" exactly the right word for the attitude of some men to gay men. At some MJ events I've experienced quite a lot of irrational homophobic reactions and I'm not even gay.

Think I tend to agree more with Martin than Andy on this. Although I've known a fair few gay guys and lasses I really dont like overly effeminate/camp behaviour and I'm not overly warm to two guys (or girls) snogging each others faces off. I dont see this as being agressive, just a personal reacton. If you term that homophobic ... then I'm not easy with that definition.

[Daisy Chain]

Originally Posted by Gus

....snogging each others faces off.

Call me fussy but I don't like to see any combination of men and women getting too intimate at a MJ night. It just doesn't seem right - like doing it in front of your parents I don't bat an eyelid at any sort of couple who are swapping bodily fluids in a night club. But I feel very uncomfortable if I see dancers examining their partners tonsils at Ceroc. Thankfully, it is a rare event and has never happened to me ..............or do I not visit the right venues?

I'll get my coat

A Snoggophobic Daisy

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gus

Think I tend to agree more with Martin than Andy on this. Although I've known a fair few gay guys and lasses I really dont like overly effeminate/camp behaviour and I'm not overly warm to two guys (or girls) snogging each others faces off. I dont see this as being agressive, just a personal reacton. If you term that homophobic ... then I'm not easy with that definition.

My evidence of irrational homophobia is that when I've danced with another guy there are a number of guys that have confronted me in an aggressive way and said, in a loud voice "you gay or something?". And, of course I had to endure a smear campaign on here which accused me of being gay. The problem I have is not people guessing my sexuality wrongly, it's the implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being gay

My answer to the "you gay or something?" question is usually "give me a kiss and I'll tell you". So far I've had no kisses ...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

My evidence of irrational homophobia is that when I've danced with another guy there are a number of guys that have confronted me in an aggressive way and said, in a loud voice "you gay or something?". And, of course I had to endure a smear campaign on here which accused me of being gay. The problem I have is not people guessing my sexuality wrongly, it's the implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being gay

My answer to the "you gay or something?" question is usually "give me a kiss and I'll tell you". So far I've had no kisses ...

If you're not Gay that makes you "something" which is better than nothing Its quite a compliment really, you've just misunderstood these people, deep inside them all theres a fluffy ballerina mewling to get out

[Lindsay]

accused me of being gay.

???
But anyway..
Is homophobia (by definition) really a 'fear' of homosexuals? Like arachnophobia?? Doubt it, agree it's a dumb word.

[David Chu]

The Gay issue rears its head again!

For the record, Boy george was a huge inspiration for me during a difficult period in my life and I have had the pleaure of meeting him twice.

Ok Dancers, I get it!......some of you are uncomfortable dancing with members of the same sex, thats fine...you can dance with who ever you like and for whatever reason. I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear.

As for Steve Trampie I hope he doesn't mind me saying that
thank god there are guys out there willing to dance with me. i've had some of he best dances here in the UK with Steve. Its all about brilliant dancing for me, end of story.
I know that when i dance with Steve, he challenges me with complex moves and gravity defying dips and lifts that quite frankly he knows a lots girls out there can't or won't do and he can get away with it with me. Anyway enough about Steve. There are other brilliant dancers up here in Scotland...I hope they don't mind me saying... James, John Lusby, Dave Hancock, Steve Gaylord, Franck and Charlie are inspiring and great mates to me...gayness has nothing to do with it or our dancing....There are many others who i have not had the pleasure of dancing with (mainly because the opportunity has not arisen) but have given me plenty of support and comradship.....it is interesting to see that the best are just that...the best...not only at dancing but how they live their lives and treat other people.

Honestly, it sounds to me like some of you, are going to get alot less dances with your offensive attitudes...but as some of you have said..you've nothing against the abnormal??????What the?????

I do not have a problem with gayness, I am gay (thats actually really boring nowadays) and whilst I don't profess to be a great dancer, I can hold my own against just about all of you. I don't care if you are transvestite, transexual, gay, straight, man or woman what ever....I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.

I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously.

****Gus****
Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.
***********

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

Gus, i don't know you very well, but from what i hear, you are very well known and very well liked, so people obviously look up to you. Say something
great for a change and earn the respect that you already have instead of this thoughtless dribble.

I would like to tell you all that i would love to compete at Blackpool with another guy at Open level, unfortunately my brilliant dance partner in Australia, Anthony Douglas can't make it. If he could be there, we would compete and I bet we would do really well. We are already Champions from Ceroc Melbourne 2002, Le Bop 2002/2003. We also came second in the Caberet Section at Le Bop 2003...out of 10 couple from all over Australia.
Bent Bop (same sex couples) places 3rd at Le Bop 2003 in the caberet section. When i go back to Australia (and some of you by now are probably thinking...can't wait)... we intend to keep competing as long a same sex couples are allowed....Very pleased to see that M/M can compete at Chance2Dance.

I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!

If you are going to dance...dance safely.

Cheers

David

[Daisy Chain]

Originally Posted by David Chu

Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!

Personally, I'm not bothered who dances with who in what combination at a MJ night - as long as both partners are happy about it.

Some men give me the heebie-jeebies and I can't wait for the track to end. Other men, I want to keep all night (*hastily* for dancing!) Most women are glorious to dance with but I've never yet fancied one of them

I just want to dance with the best partners available..............men, women, whatever. I have even danced with a dog...

Daisy

(A Fabulous Little Flower)

PS May I have a dance?

[Gojive]

I have even danced with a dog...

Me too!....boy was that a "ruff" experience!

[ToeTrampler]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

I have even danced with a dog...

I've danced with a bitch

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by David Chu

I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.

I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously.

......

Totally agree. I'd be happy to dance with you. I wouldn't enjoy it as much as I would with an equally good female dancer, but that's just because I prefer the tactile feel of a woman to that of a guy.

Re Gus's comment, though, I think it warrants a little more of an in-depth look.

Originally Posted by gus

Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.

Originally Posted by David Chu

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

He might have put it a little clumsily (it's his trademark ), but there's a point to be made here.

I dance with guys, sometimes, no probs - I don't care if they're gay or straight. I dance with girls all the time, and I expect I don't always know if they're gay or straight.

There was one time I danced with a guy pretending to be a woman (or so I assumed), though, and it was noteworthy because it did make me feel uncomfortable.

(S)he was dressed in a tight mini-dress, long wig, fake nails, lipstick... but had chunky bloke's legs, rough bloke's hands, bushy blokey eyebrows, square masculine face.

Now as I've said before, I've nothing against gay people of either sex. But I felt distinctly uncomfortable dancing in the class with this individual.

I didn't enjoy it, at some quite primal level. I think you have to concede that you can be unprejudiced, in the sense that "prejudice" is used these days, but still not enjoy dancing when there's an element of unwanted sexuality imposed on the encounter - for whatever reason. I think in this case there was a clear dissonance established by the conflicting male/female signals.

Now I certainly wouldn't suggest that heterosexual dance encounters are always Ok - far from it, as you'll know if you read what I write here quite often about pervs and groping - but I do think you have to be careful not to appear too politically correct, and invalidate people's legitimate feelings.

Please don't stop posting here, though, David - this forum needs the kind of insight and breadth you bring.

Chris

[Gus]

Originally Posted by David Chu

The Gay issue rears its head again!
I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

I think it would be a real shame if you cessated your comments on this subject. IMHO this is an ongoing topic like drops / overcrowded dancefloors etc. The general dance public have a range of views on the subject and, maybe, a lack of understanding. Though it may be old news to you, there are a range of feelings about race, sexuality etc that need to be discussed in society (and that includes dance, to promote understanding. Though some of the comemnts may be somewhat direct (yup ... guilty ) I dont believe any have been said with the intention of causing offence.

Originally Posted by David Chu

****Gus****
Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.
***********

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
[SNIP]Say something great for a change and earn the respect that you already have instead of this thoughtless dribble..

I'm sorry but I said what was my opinion .... dribble it may be but it was the best my lame brain could come up with. I'm not going to change what I believe just to be politicaly correct. At the same time I dont try to come out with the "... and some of my best friends are gay" line. My best mates brother is gay .... but till I have to think about it its not an issue. I've danced with a fair few blokes, some gay, some not ... its not something I'm massively into ... but then again I dont particuarly like dancing with RnR dancers much either. Isn't the whole thing a bit "each to their own" ... dance with whom ever you like dancing with? I think that the 'gay issue' to a large extent ISNT an issue on the dance circuit .... or is their evidence to the contrary?

[MartinHarper]

I don't see anything hideously wrong with Chris being uncomfortable dancing with the cross-dresser he mentions, though in an ideal world I'd prefer if that discomfort didn't exist. However, I'm glad he still had the dance, despite the discomfort. After all, Chris refuses dances with "perverts, yankers, and stinkers", and I don't believe that cross-dressing belongs in that group.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

After all, Chris refuses dances with "perverts, yankers, and stinkers"

In the interests of strict accuracy, I encourage ladies not to feel obliged to to accept dances with guys who are perverts, yankers or stinkers.

It is so rare that I dance with ladies that grope inappropriately or that smell bad, it is simply a non-issue.

There are lots of yankers amongst the ranks of intermediate ladies, but as a guy I'm much more in control of what the dance consists of, and usually I'm quite a lot stronger than they are, so dancing with a woman that yanks isn't likely to do as much damage as can a guy that yanks.

I might turn down the offer of a second dance if I've been yanked about in the first one.

Chris

PS Appropriate groping... now that's another thing althogether...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Gus

Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.

Originally Posted by David Chu

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

I think the reason Gus used quotes round 'normal' is because he was talking about perception, and I agree. Transvestites are not 'normal' because there are not many of them, even fewer at dancing. Saying that, a 'normal' night on the town for a lot of people seems to be get get totally drunk, throw up, snog a stranger and eat kebabs at the end of the night. With such definitions of what is 'normal' supplied by various people in society, why would anyone want to be 'normal' . Appreciate the differences, but remember that everyone is 'normal' in at least some regards. Unless they're an anarchist or have a t-shirt that says 'must not conform' ...I would buy one of those .

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by David Chu

I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Please don't leave the forum because of a few thoughtless postings. Of course there are a few people out there who don't like gays, there are also people who don't like old people, men, women, blacks, spiders, Brussel sprouts, etc. I'm sure spiders and Brussel sprouts learn to live with it! And I'm sure you've encountered that kind of bigotry from time to time and have coped perfectly well.

If you lived a bit nearer I'd suggest we entered the Open together. I've already come 3rd in the intermediate with another guy and 4th in the Old Gits with Sheepman and 4th in the double trouble with Steve Lampert and Rob Coward. And I'm a much better dancer now (possibly.. ).

Anyway, please keep popping into the forum - I'm sure people value your input.

Cheers.

Andy

p.s. Oops! I had meant to send this as a PM!