Attitudes to Gay men...

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

..............If you lived a bit nearer I'd suggest we entered the Open together. I've already come 3rd in the intermediate with another guy and 4th in the Old Gits with Sheepman and 4th in the double trouble with Steve Lampert and Rob Coward. And I'm a much better dancer now

Well there's an offer you can't dismiss David - I can vouch Andy is a great lead, has good musicality and is lots of fun, and he follows pretty good too

Distance is only a little problem as we do have Bognor in a couple of months, and that would give plenty of time to practice

You mght have to fight for the follow though

[Minnie M]

BTW in Brighton we have a few gay MJ dancers (Male and Female) - most of the guys prefer to lead, but at times they switch, the women prefer to lead, but are quite happy to follow if asked. I am sure that most of the dance scene have no idea of their sexuality, and why should they - they are there to dance

I am a fat old and not pretty jewish woman, I think I have found more prejudice then my gay friends (even on the dance scene)

PS: Not feeling sorry for myself just stating facts

[Monika]

[quote=David Chu]The Gay issue rears its head again!

"Ok Dancers, I get it!......some of you are uncomfortable dancing with members of the same sex, thats fine...you can dance with who ever you like and for whatever reason. I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear"
I don't care if you are transvestite, transexual, gay, straight, man or woman what ever....I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.
I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously."

David
Thank's for sharing your thoughts about this subject. I'm not sure where to start other than by saying that I do disagree with your comment that you don't profess to be a great dancer as in my opinion you most definitely should: You are a great dancer and a real inspiration! Fabolous to watch and learn from - whether you dance as a follower or lead a dance-partner - male or female. I feel the topic is a bit unfair and should be generalised more: A few dancers may well be unconfortable with dancing with gay men, but I have also heard a few narrow minded people mention that they would rather not dance with someone a lot younger than them - or older - or someone from a different country - or someone they don't like the dress-sense of etc etc. I think you are spot on when you mention fear - as some people fear anything they feel or perceive is different. After all we are talking about dancing and it should be just dancing and fun. It doesn't matter how old you are - what size you are or where you are from etc etc. I've had lot's of great dances with male and female leaders (as not yet able to lead myself) and I am delighted to find that some girls still ask me to dance and I have also asked girls to dance when I want a dance. Never occured to me to worry what people would think about me dancing with other women and it shouldn't matter. The dancers who restrict themselves to certain limitations to who they would dance with are the ones missing out. Saying that I do agree that you must be careful before accepting to dance with someone you know are likely to injure you (based on experience and ignorance of requests not to do any lifts or drops etc) or maybe have had a few drinks too many due to the risk of getting hurt. Injury can take only a few seconds to happen, but a lifetime to endure (having missed out months of dancing after a injury I know I will be more careful in future).
I - for one - will be devastated when (if???any chance you will change your mind??) you decide to leave UK as I think you truly are a fantastic person and certainly one of the best and most inspirational dancers in Scotland at the moment. I admire your dancing and I'm proud to know you and call you a friend. It is hard not to get personally involved when some comments may appear hurtful towards a friend, but also believe it is good that we can share thoughts and views on various topics without attacking anyone personally for who they are and I don't think that is the case here - comments observed and experienced are unfortunately a negative behaviour to something "trivial" as being a bit "different" - being foreign I sometimes experience negative comments about behaving slightly different than the "norm" - but luckily not a big problem and it really doesn't matter. I know who my friends are and wouldn't give up dancing based on some peoples different views as I'm enjoying it too much and I'll be the one missing out. I know you won't ever think of giving up dancing, but just be strong and be who you are: We who know you care for you for who you are.
Good luck in finding a dance-partner for Blackpool.
Happy dancing
Mon x

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

You mght have to fight for the follow though

Sorry I must admit I find it easier to follow people who are taller than me. MinnieM is only 4" tall (although I'm not much taller) and I keep tripping over her tail

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by David Chu

I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!

David

Don't leave us David, the more and broarder the veiws and experiances on the forum the better.
You have more of an effect than you know. I will become a good follow, eventually. Watching you convinced me it would be possible.
And we'll get a dance, something I have missed so far. Not this week I'm afriad, my van hit the self distruct button so getting to Perth or beyond is a non starter.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Gus

I think it would be a real shame if you cessated your comments on this subject. IMHO this is an ongoing topic like drops / overcrowded dancefloors etc. The general dance public have a range of views on the subject and, maybe, a lack of understanding. Though it may be old news to you, there are a range of feelings about race, sexuality etc that need to be discussed in society (and that includes dance, to promote understanding.

David, I think it's a real shame that you've taken offence the this subject being raised again. IMO having open and frank discussions where people can express their points of view, hang ups and inherent prejudices is the only way forward.

You never know, there maybe men or women who have read this thread, who have been educated, who will now feel more relaxed about dancing with the 'same sex'

Hearing that other well respected men in the MJ community dance with other men and find it totally acceptable, even really enjoyable and that no one judges them negatively may encourage other to loose their hang-ups about it.

I'm afraid there's a lot of weak characters, that rely on other more dominant people to validate their actions. They may feel fine with the idea of dancing 'same sex' but don't have the confidence to either ask or accept, for fear they may be frowned upon or judged negatively!

So if you get a few 'names' saying, Hey, of course its OK! I'm really cool with it! What's the problem? I think this paves the way for more acceptance generally!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

I am a fat old and not pretty jewish woman

Really ? Ive met you and I cant identify with those terms - try - exhuberant, friendly, fun, happy. morish* and fantastic.....you're right with the 'woman' bit though



* as in 'we want some more minnie mouse'

[Gadget]

> I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear.
the topic turned to "fear" because it drifted into discussing what the term "homophobic" meant - a phobia being an irrational fear; note the "irrational" bit. I thought that the discussion was actually a positive thing for the dancing community: it seemed to be leading towards dismissing the term "homophobic" because there was no real 'fear' to be felt.
{edit: after reading Monica's excellent post - I agree, there are phobias and prejudices (and not just towards gay folk) but in my opinion they are a lot less in the dance community than in the world at large.}

Some people give you the creeps. They don't have to be pervs, stinkers, yankers... most of the time, those that do give you the 'creeps' are those who are pretending to be one thing, but you sense that they are actually something else. People who say one thing, but you see another in their eyes. Act one way towards you, but another when you are not watching...
Some transsexuals and 'creepy' people fall into this category - a thin veneer of one thing over a completely different inner self.
I think that this is what Gus was referring to and why it creeps him out - not really the fact that it's a transsexual, but the fact that it's someone pretending to be someone else. They are wearing a facade constructed from their own perceptions of what they should be; trying to project a false image over the reality.

>I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion)
You may not be camp, but there is a grace to your actions that is normally only seen in females. You do not pretend to be anything other than what you are. There is no pretence or forced 'acting'. I think that more people would be "comfortable" around you than (for example) Andy dressing up and camping it up....{ OK, perhaps a bad example, but you know what I mean.}

>I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that
>I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.
awwww, you don't really mean that do you? There are only a few dancers that I notice on the dance floor when I am dancing (other than the obvious floorcraft) - Tramp, Lisa, Sal, Bill, Scooby, JohnL, Gaylord, Sheena, and a handful of others {I had to pick those that I remembered the names of } I consider yourself to be among them; a 'presence' on the dance floor.

{BTW If I can find you off the dance floor in a time that I'm off the dance floor, then I will definitely be asking for a dance... you'll have to follow; I'm rubbish at it.}

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

......... morish* ...........
* as in 'we want some more minnie mouse'

Whenever I think of the word morish, I think of food - yep I liked that word ....

Thanks DS l wasn't fishing for comps, however, I still love them

I do suffer prejudice from chaps who only want to dance with either slim, young, or pretty things - preferably all three. It does hurt sometimes but you get over it.

Please don't leave us David, you have written some of the best posts and if you leave the forum we may never get the chance to meet - we ALL love you and we ALL want to dance with you - and you have got to dance with Sparkles - she is the bestest lead ever

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Gadget

>
{BTW If I can find you off the dance floor in a time that I'm off the dance floor, then I will definitely be asking for a dance... you'll have to follow; I'm rubbish at it.}

This i can vouch for!!!

Anyway, I dont care who i dance with, not that doesn't sound right! I do care, i care about every dance i get and i hope to make it enjoyable for others!!! What i don't care about is the label that people put on them. I will dance with someone either because they ask me or because i want to and ask them! I hate to be labeled so i treat everyone the way i want to be treated!

I danced with david once, i had only been dancing 3 weeks and mucked it up so much that i have never asked for another one!! Maybe next time though!

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Gadget

>

>I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion)
You may not be camp, but there is a grace to your actions that is normally only seen in females. You do not pretend to be anything other than what you are. There is no pretence or forced 'acting'. I think that more people would be "comfortable" around you than (for example) Andy dressing up and camping it up....{ OK, perhaps a bad example, but you know what I mean.}

I saw some fantasic 'man with man' dancing at Camber and its changed my opinion. I saw 'dancing'. Some 'camp' performances in the past made me feel rightly or wrongly 'edgy'.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gadget

[Some transsexuals] are wearing a facade constructed from their own perceptions of what they should be; trying to project a false image over the reality.

I suspect pretty much any pre-op transsexual will tell you that the reality is the way they are inside, and the facade is the body they're stuck in, rather than the other way round.

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

Call me fussy but I don't like to see any combination of men and women getting too intimate at a MJ night. It just doesn't seem right - like doing it in front of your parents

I can't really explain why, but I feel this way too. I'm sure it's not because I'm jealous they might be having more fun than me, 'cos I don't think they are And it doesn't mean to say I haven't been tempted to do the same, it just doesn't seem right. A few months ago I noticed a couple were undressing each other on the dance floor, and it really did just seem totally inappropriate, but where is the borderline, especially when it comes to a late night blues session ... ?

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by stewart38

I saw some fantasic 'man with man' dancing at Camber and its changed my opinion. I saw 'dancing'. Some 'camp' performances in the past made me feel rightly or wrongly 'edgy'.

I think it depends on the circumstances, the music, your partner, your costume, etc. I had a few dances with guys at Camber, I can't remember doing anything but dancing the same was as I usually do ...

.. which would have been dead camp irrespective of the sex of my partner or me leading or following if they were playing Y.M.C.A., Go West, I Am What I Am or any other gay anthem

But if they were playing some nice swingy number or something like Toxic I'd have played it dead straight - I think it's called 'musicality'

[Dan Hudson]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I think it depends on the circumstances, the music, your partner, your costume, etc. I had a few dances with guys at Camber, I can't remember doing anything but dancing the same was as I usually do ...

I can confirm you were a complete slapper andy

Had a fabulous dance with Andy this year at Camber and Trampy last year.. I couldn't give a toss if the dance is with a guy or a girl as long as we both enjoy it!

[David Chu]

Hi Dancers,

Thank you for the replies to this thread, I just hope that maybe, we can be abit kinder to people that may make us feel abit uncomfortable. Hey, I feel uncomfotable around footballers....it doesn't mean i wouldn't dance with one though...hee hee.

Regardless of who we normally dance with, when you dance with someone new, isn't it always abit awkward. I'm not very tall so i shy away from tall girls because I'm frightened i might bang them in the nose or worse. I shy away from the "top" dancers cause I just don't think i cut it. I guess if I was dancing with a tall "top" transexual dancer I too would feel uncomfortable!

Anyway,

What can I say, I'm a dancaholic, lead of follow, I'm not happy unless I'm doing both. I would go insane if I couldn't follow.

Hey, Minnie M, I've not met you but I hope i get to dance with you one day.
When I do, I'll give you my all and make you feel like a real woman! cheers!

The Brighton MJ class sounds interesting, I'd love to come down some time for a class.

Gus, I'd gladly have a dance with you sometime, just for fun and i promise not to wear my heels, I'll leave my wig at home...I won't even wear a kilt ok.

I'm hardly ever off the dance floor really but do ask me for a dance whether you are male, female, straight, gay, transvestite, transexual, transatlantic, transferable, transplanted, transcontinental, transalpine, transported, transposed or bisexual, biannual, bicycle, biplane, biorythmic,
bi one get one free!!!

Bi!

XXXX

David

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by David Chu

........Hey, Minnie M, I've not met you but I hope i get to dance with you one day. When I do, I'll give you my all and make you feel like a real woman! cheers!
........

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by David Chu

Bi!

It's reading posts like this that make me wish sometimes that I was