Attitudes to Gay men...

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gus


Graham ... thanks for reviving my absent memory ... but what was your reaction when you first saw Boy George's features on TV ... share..

Hmmm. I'm not sure I can remember my first reaction, but I do remember the whole boy/girl thing, and then the straight/gay issue. I thought he had to be gay, as it would have been too much to put himself through if he wasn't.

[Emma]

Slightly off thread but, did you see the 'top ten electro pop' programme this weekend?

Apart from being transported back to my early teenaged years (on thread! on thread!!) I thought one of the most interesting things about it was the stuff about the gay element. Bronski Beat were apparantly the first openly gay band. The Pet Shop Boys weren't openly gay - but couldn't we tell? It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma
It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent

TOTALY OFF THREAD .....

Good point ... but counter point .... WHO CARES??

Met loads of gay guys over the last 10 years (some became mates) ... and never really had a problem ... with the exception of one class at Central Club where a very effeminate chap joined the ladies line the night that the routine involved some very close moves and a deep drop .... never seen so many big blokes looking petrified ......

[Graham]

Originally posted by Emma
The Pet Shop Boys weren't openly gay - but couldn't we tell? It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent

I didn't see the programme, but I know what you mean - I remember seeing the Pet Shop Boys being interviewed a few months back, and thinking that they seemed much "gayer" than I remembered. Maybe they really did try to disguise it back then? I'd need to see some archive footage. Or your innocence theory may apply to me too.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Graham


I didn't see the programme, but I know what you mean - I remember seeing the Pet Shop Boys being interviewed a few months back, and thinking that they seemed much "gayer" than I remembered.

I remember going to an early Tom Robinson Band gig (at the tender age of 16, and (along with everyone else in the audience) singing "Sing if you're gald to be gay" ..... just a song to 99% of the audience. Interestingly enough our School Headmaster was furious when he found out pupils had gone to the concert ... and that Mr Robinson had appeared on stage wearing our School uniform and tie ..... could be something to do with the fact that my school was a Christian Brothers Grammar School .... not that I would ever accuse them of being homophobic

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus


TOTALLY OFF THREAD .....

Good point ... but counter point .... WHO CARES??

Heh..not me, not at all! I just thought it was interesting.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma


Heh..not me, not at all! I just thought it was interesting.

Sorry ... badly phrased response by me ...

What I meant was ... does anyone care if some is gay?? Not quite a rhetorical question ... being somewhat more ancientnthan yourslef I remeber the gay rights movements, gay bashing, outing etc. .... and it was seriously less than funny at the time. Have attitudes changed? If you list all the 'known' gay artists (at least male) a heck of a lot are the better ones were/are gay ..... and the rest seem to be cocaine snorting/sex crazed beasts ..... hmmmm, may be time for a career change

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus

... does anyone care if some is gay??

Sadly I think rather a lot of people care if someone is gay, which has always rather bewildered me.

I was amazed recently by the attitudes of several people whom I know to be intelligent individuals to a transvestite (and I realise he may or may not have been gay) who came to a venue I dance at recently. Most of it seemed to be born out of fear if I'm being charitable. But there were people who were seriously considering either not dancing or even not attending again because of it. Now that is scary.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma


I was amazed recently by the attitudes of several people whom I know to be intelligent individuals to a transvestite (and I realise he may or may not have been gay) who came to a venue I dance at recently. ..Now that is scary.

Franck ... can you move this discussion to a new thread?

Sorry ... but I'd have to say I have some sympathy with this latter category. I'm NOT homophobic but will openly admit that I do feel 'uncomfortable' around very camp lads and especially transvestites ... I don't feel threatened ... just don't like it .. and thats my right as an individual. I may enjoy dancing with lads as a bit of a laugh but please don't expect male dancers to relish the prospect of a 'serious' dance with a transvestite.

As sad as it may be I've heard of at least one Modern Jive club that eneded up closing after an influx of male gay dancers who insisted on dancing the 'follow' role with straight men.

If I'm in a minority with this view ... I'm sorry ... but for once maybe I'm in the majority.

[Emma]

I don't think your point of view is the minority: what saddens me is that people would stop doing something that they love because of it. I don't really understand why the men who really were bothered couldn't just say they didn't want to dance/needed a drink/whatever at the end of the class at the point of going into freestyle. Actually this particular individual wasn't asking other guys to dance as far as I'm aware, s/he was waiting to be asked. In which case it's entirely up to the other people at the venue whether or not they as him/her to dance, and his/her presence shouldn't really be an issue

[Gus]

Fair comment .... misunderstood what you said.

As at the incident at the Central Club, didn't put anyone off going the following week, and in freetsyle he just danced with his boyfriend ... and everyone seemed pretty OK about that.

[Gadget]

Most of the discussion is with reference to gay men; why is it that is seems to be only the men who are uncomfortable with dancing with their own sex than women ?

I suppose that it's the 'handbag' thing; women are used to dancing with their friends, and see the dance as just a dance. Men on the other hand tend to only dance with women that they want to get into bed with {I'm talking 'club/disco' dancing, not 'ceroc',... although ..}

Thinking more... a lot of dance is about flirting with your partner - if you feel 'uncomfortable' (subjective term) with your partner, then a lot of the style and moves that you would normally put in to flirt would be absent.

Myself, I would see a gay man who is dancing as a follower in the same light as any follower.

[TheTramp]

Have to agree with Gadget's last point.

If you are a guy, and you're happy dancing with other men in general (and I know that a lot of guys aren't (I found this out when I did a class as a woman once!!)), then does it matter if the guy is gay or not??

When I dance with ladies, I don't fancy or want a relationship with most of them. It's just a dance, I have (hopefully) some fun, then I say thank you and move on. If I'm dancing as a follow, then the other person is just a lead, and vice versa.

Is it more to do with the thought of what other people will think of us, rather than the actual dancing itself that's the problem??

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Is it more to do with the thought of what other people will think of us, rather than the actual dancing itself that's the problem??

Valid point. i think that you may have the crux of the matter; most people who dance want to show off. Ie they want others to look at them and think 'wow - cool'. So they are actively looking for others to form an opinion of them - but only from what they show of themselves on the dance floor; a filtered view of themselves. By dancing with another of the same sex, perhaps it is a piece of the show that they would not want others to form an opinion from - it does not match with the image they are trying to portray on the dance floor.
I think that other, less bias dancers, don't give a monkey's about what others think of as cool, just so long as they match that 'cool' image in their own head. Either that or are confident that their skill will be the predominant part of the performance and not the participants.
Then again, perhaps it's just that most males are raised slightly homophobic.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget

Valid point. i think that you may have the crux of the matter; most people who dance want to show off. Ie they want others to look at them and think 'wow - cool'. .....I think that other, less bias dancers, don't give a monkey's about what others think of as cool, just so long as they match that 'cool' image in their own head. .......
Then again, perhaps it's just that most males are raised slightly homophobic.

Gadget/Tramp,

sorry but I think you guys have way missed the point. Having problems dancing with a transvestite or openly camp guy has NOTHING to do with worrying about how you are perveived on the dancefloor ... its got everything to do with being put in an uncomfortable position. I've got no problems with dancing with guys ... its fun, its bathos ... BUT I DO have a problem dancing with a transvestitive. Let me put this is context ... ignoring what others may think ..... would you feel fine walking down the street hand in hand with a very camp guy, or kissing one on the lips? If not, why not?

There are certain 'rules' of behaviour that are 'acceptable' and feel right to a hetrosexual male ... kissing an openly homosexual male tends to run contrary to those rules. In a similar way, dancing with one feels uncomfrotable. Guys dancing with guys is tends to be for fun, if it was serious then that would technically be exhibiting homosexual attributes .... how would you then call that?

[TheTramp]

Gus,

I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think that you missed my point too.

I wouldn't feel particularly uncomfortable dancing with a transvestite (at least, I don't think I would, I've never been in the position to find out). I wouldn't feel comfortable about walking down the street hand in hand with one, and I certainly wouldn't be ever kissing one on the lips (or any other part of the body either for that matter). But when it comes to dancing, I dance with other guys, why not one who just happens to like dressing as a woman? I wouldn't be dancing with him (her?) other than to have fun, and at the end of the dance, I'd walk away.

I think that it's up to the individual as to what they personally find comfortable/uncomfortable. Lots of men would not be comfortable dancing with another guy at all. So they would be taking the same PoV to you dancing with a straight guy, as you are to me dancing with a gay guy. I'm not saying that there's a right or a wrong here either. It is totally up to the individual.

As for exhibiting homosexual tendancies, I have to disagree. As I said before, I don't fancy most of the women I dance with. Why should the fact that I'm dancing with a gay guy mean that I fancy him? For me, it's all just dancing. If there were people watching who had a problem with it, or were concerned about my sexuality, then that's their problem, not mine.

Steve

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus

..... would you feel fine walking down the street hand in hand with a very camp guy, or kissing one on the lips? If not, why not?

I don't see how you can compare this to spending three minutes on a dance floor dancing with a camp guy or transvestite...unless perhaps you would walk down the street with your 'straight' male friends or kiss them on the lips.

On a (slightly) separate issue:

I'll admit to being very slightly worried sometimes about how people will perceive me when I dance with other women - but it doesn't stop me dancing with them. And yeah, I would dance with an openly gay woman - why ever not? I don't assume that every man I dance with is interested in me, so why would a woman be?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma



I'll admit to being very slightly worried sometimes about how people will perceive me when I dance with other women - but it doesn't stop me dancing with them. And yeah, I would dance with an openly gay women - why ever not? I don't assume that every man I dance with is interested in me, so why would a woman be?

Refering back to an earlier posting ... its always been socially acceptable for ladies to dance together ... would never even occur to most men that their would be any other connotations.... however, a few female friends of mine did push their luck when they tried Blues dancing together ... they found that the female body design managed to create a few 'obstacles' to getting close enough..:sorry

[Emma]

Ah, yes..big knees...

Peculiar though, isn't it, that it is totally socially acceptable for women to dance together and not men. I think it is this which puzzles me. It shouldn't be so. What's sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander.

[TheTramp]

Ah, yes..big knees...

Do you have big knees Emma? I didn't notice....

Steve