sent to gaol

[Dreadful Scathe]

Saw this this morning. And one thing struck me. Ow. Should we really spend any time worrying about complaints from people who have been found guilty by the courts and locked up - should they not just be thankful for what they DO have in prisons that they would not have had 100 years ago? It could be argued that part of the problem with reintegrating criminals into society is that when some of them come out their standard of living DROPS remarkably.

discuss

[Piglet]

Easy solution:

transfer all inmates to the hospitals and all patients into the prisons where they'll get free TV, decent food and probably no MRSA or other nasty infections. The inmates... hey, who cares really?

[Rebecca]

I'm trying to decide how I feel about the connections between this issue and this other thread initiated by Dreadful Scathe:

nice one

I work for the NHS in a secure unit for people detained under the Mental Health Act as a result of their mental disorder and risk to others. Often they have been referred from the prison service. I also used to work for the prison service.

I thought, having considered the above – Do my patients have the right to complain about the conditions in which they live? After all, they have no choice but to be there. . . . . Of course they do!

Then I thought – Do NHS patients in general medicine have a right to complain about their treatment in hospital? After all, it could be argued that they have a choice to seek treatment elsewhere. . . . . Of course they do! Many don’t have this choice, and to seek private treatment (often not the better option I will add) is not viable for most – it might even take a criminal act to enable this choice (i.e. fraud), and remember, it is being argued that criminals don’t have the right to complain.

[LMC]

Prisons work very well, they must do since they are so overcrowded and we need so many more of them. [/sarcasm]

I have never seen the point of locking people up for minor non-violent crime - "punish" them through properly supervised and managed community service. That has to be cheaper than the minimum £36K a year it costs to keep someone inside. A lot more to keep a "place" open that is filled by a series of people who are jailed for 10 days for failing to pay a fine.

Skilling people up in prisons has been proved to be effective* - by all means lock people up if necessary, but it's rather pointless to give them nothing to do - it gives them little alternative other than complaining whilst inside, then reoffending when they come out. How many people have actually been in a prison? - Rebecca and UP, obviously - but would be interested to hear experiences from others, who like me, don't work in the crime prevention/criminal justice but have actually been beyond a prison visiting area. I have visited 3 prisons (2 were young offenders' institutes) and it is an eye opener. Seen Shawshank Redemption? The environment in HMP Wandsworth is WORSE - the rubbish, the smells, etc.

*Examples: National Grid program. Smaller, but equally effective is a project I have visited in Wandsworth - Radio Wanno - independent link - which has charitable funding as well as some from the prison service. There are others.

Whilst they are in prison, treat people like human beings. That way they are more likely to behave like human beings when they come out, rather than go back to crime. Some complaints are bound to be petty and unreasonable - but that's life, and will happen with complaints anywhere.

[TiggsTours]

I thought the purpose of the the prison system was 2 fold, 1: to punish, and 2: (and more importantly) to rehabilitate.

You don't rehabilitate anyone by treating them like animals, you only do that by enabling the builiding of a mutual trust and respect.

Also, surely some of the prisons hold people who are on remand, who surely are still considered innocent, until proven guilty, and may actually BE innocent!

[Dance Demon]

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

I thought the purpose of the the prison system was 2 fold, 1: to punish, and 2: (and more importantly) to rehabilitate.

You don't rehabilitate anyone by treating them like animals, you only do that by enabling the builiding of a mutual trust and respect.

Also, surely some of the prisons hold people who are on remand, who surely are still considered innocent, until proven guilty, and may actually BE innocent!

Think you've got the priority wrong there. The punishment is the most important part surely. I think if you asked the victims of crime or the relitives of deceased victims of crime, they would want the perpetrators punished foremost, then maybe rehabilitated. The majority of people that are on remand are there because the police think they have sufficient evidence that they are guilty. Personally, I believe that we should reinstate the sentence of hard labour for repeat offenders. Comfy cells with TV and other home comforts is not really a deterrent IMHO

[ducasi]

I'd rather see people come out of prison and become useful members of society, rather than holding a grudge against it.

Sorry if I'm being idealistic.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

Personally, I believe that we should reinstate the sentence of hard labour for repeat offenders.

Couldn't agree more! Perhaps this would have an affect on the number of crimes committed? Perhaps not, but I'd like to see it being given a try.

As for...

Originally Posted by Ducasi

I'd rather see people come out of prison and become useful members of society, rather than holding a grudge against it.

Does this really happen?

Anyone got any personal experience rather than statistics, which we all know can be manipulated to show whatever you darn well like. The only case I know of :

I know one guy who went to jail - and it was a pretty rotten place as I was told by his sister who went to visit him. He ended up there cos he was involved in a crime where the victim was hit over the head with a piece of metal. The guy I know wasn't the one who committed the crime, but was in the company, at the time, of the guy who did it. (The victim was left brain damaged).

The guy who committed the crime got a better lawyer and was given a lesser sentence. The guy I know, was blamed for the actual attack although it wasn't him who committed it. He served his time and has been out for years and is an upstanding member of the public, but then again, he wasn't far off being that before he went into prison - he simply got in with a "bad lot".

I don't know anyone else who has been sent to prison and has come out a rehabilitated person - one whom society can be proud of. Do you? I'd be interested to hear.


Also, rumour has it that mostly being in prison opens up education for knowing how to do other crimes - being taught by the experts (mind you if they've been caught they can't be that "expert").

In our local papers this week, it was saying that most inmates here have mobile phones even though they are not allowed - along with access to drugs which are also prohibited - (I beg to ask why they are not confiscated) and apparently there's opportunity for the inmates to still have a finger in the world of crime on the outside due to this. (Mind you, newspapers being what they are, I guess I should take this with a pinch of salt - as I know from experience they are experienced in misquoting).

[Dance Demon]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I'd rather see people come out of prison and become useful members of society, rather than holding a grudge against it.

Sorry if I'm being idealistic.

so would I...unfortunately too many offenders re offend because there's no deterrent there to stop them. It's all very well pandering to prisoners "civil rights", but a lot of them are incarcerated because they have violated the civil rights of innocent people. There is surely more likelihood that someone who has been the victim of a crime will hold a grudge against society, if that society fails to protect them or provide sufficient justice.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Couldn't agree more! Perhaps this would have an affect on the number of crimes committed? Perhaps not, but I'd like to see it being given a try.

As for...


Does this really happen?

Anyone got any personal experience rather than statistics, which we all know can be manipulated to show whatever you darn well like. The only case I know of :

Happens all the time. Many inmates are in prision after doing a crime in 'black out' whilst under the influence of drinks or drugs or both . This can be from murder to GBH etc

Many come out and choose a programme of 'recovery'.

Prisoners that go ‘straight’ after a ‘stretch’ im afraid make poor headlines

If you want to be in papers (well daily mail) have 13 kids and live on welfare or re-offend

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

...unfortunately too many offenders re offend because there's no deterrent there to stop them.

Evidently, the existing system is therefore NOT working.

If you think cells are comfy, you try sharing a 8 x 12 space containing an open toilet with another adult 23 hours a day - some prisoners are locked up for that long daily because overcrowding leaves insufficient supervisory resources. When I went to a certain young offenders' institution, many of those young men smelled. Really bad. It transpired that they were lucky to get a shower every 2 or 3 days owing to lack of prison officers.

I fail to see how "punishing" someone in prison will make them come out as a better person who is inclined to contribute to society. Education does not have to be the soft option and at least provides some motivation to go straight (see references in my earlier post).

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Saw this this morning. And one thing struck me. Ow. Should we really spend any time worrying about complaints from people who have been found guilty by the courts and locked up - should they not just be thankful for what they DO have in prisons that they would not have had 100 years ago?

Is this a bid for grabbing the ODA title?

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

I thought the purpose of the the prison system was 2 fold, 1: to punish, and 2: (and more importantly) to rehabilitate.

Threefold, according to the head of the prison service:
- Protect society by keeping crims off the street
- Punish criminals,
- Provide rehabilitation

I don't believe the guy said which one was most important. Of course, the system is completely hopeless at rehabiliation - most of the time, once you get into the prison system, you stay there.

From a purely economic point-of-view, it's better to spend, say, £36K on rehabilitating a prisoner than on keeping him locked up - especially because a rehabilitated prisoner can work and pay taxes etc., so there's a double gain.

The trouble is, all "prevention" spending (crime reduction, health education etc.) is politically low-value, as you can't point to how effective it is - "XX amount of crimes won't be committed over the next decade" doesn't have the same ring as "10,000 more bobbies on the street". So that's always the last in the queue, from a priority point-of-view.

As to the original question ("Should we really spend any time worrying about complaints from people who have been found guilty by the courts and locked up"?), the answer is that complaints are feedback - and feedback is always useful, and should be encouraged. Good feedback means you can provide a better "service" if you know what your "customers" think.

And, all things being equal, more complaints = more dissatisfaction, so that's another indicator that our prisons are overstretched and doing worse than they were. Still, if things get too bad, there's always one of those 1,000 corrupt prison officers to ease your path I guess...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Is this a bid for grabbing the ODA title?

Well, Gus has become more opinionated lately it seems

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

they would want the perpetrators punished foremost, then maybe rehabilitated

Rehabilitation is not, or certainly, shouldnt be about giving criminals something for nothing or rewarding them for their crimes. Done well its us that benefit the most, with less criminals reoffending. I agree there needs to be a punishment; a loss of liberty and whatever else is appropriate for the crimes (e.g. seizure of assets etc..) but without some sort of plan for rehabilitation we are not looking at the bigger picture and crime figures will not be afected that much.

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

Think you've got the priority wrong there. The punishment is the most important part surely. I think if you asked the victims of crime or the relitives of deceased victims of crime, they would want the perpetrators punished foremost, then maybe rehabilitated. The majority of people that are on remand are there because the police think they have sufficient evidence that they are guilty. Personally, I believe that we should reinstate the sentence of hard labour for repeat offenders. Comfy cells with TV and other home comforts is not really a deterrent IMHO

So, someone commits a violent crime, they go to prison, they are treated like an animal, they are severely punished, they learn nothing about mutual trust and respect for fellow man, they instead learn from other criminals about how to be better criminals, they learn to hate everybody, hate the system, hate society and hate themselves, they are released after they have served their "time", suitably punished. A week later, they commit another (probably far more) violent crime against me, or someone I love.

Alternatively, they go to prison (a punishment in itself, anyone who has spent time in prison will, I'm sure, tell you they don't every want to go back), they are educated, treated well, they build a mutual trust and respect, they learn to appreciate certain things they've not appreciated before, they learn good things about themselves, they learn new skills, and when they are released they are helped into a new life, wanting to turn over that leaf and be a better person. They do not commit any further violent crimes again.

Personally, I still believe that rehabilitation is more important than punishment, if it wasn't, why did this country (and many others) scrap the death penalty.

If you think option 2 is a idealistic story that never happens, you're wrong, I've seen it happen, to more than one person.

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by LMC

Evidently, the existing system is therefore NOT working.

If you think cells are comfy, you try sharing a 8 x 12 space containing an open toilet with another adult 23 hours a day - some prisoners are locked up for that long daily because overcrowding leaves insufficient supervisory resources. When I went to a certain young offenders' institution, many of those young men smelled. Really bad. It transpired that they were lucky to get a shower every 2 or 3 days owing to lack of prison officers.

I fail to see how "punishing" someone in prison will make them come out as a better person who is inclined to contribute to society. Education does not have to be the soft option and at least provides some motivation to go straight (see references in my earlier post).

I was just about to say exactly the same thing myself.

[Rebecca]

I often get asked why I work in this field, why I bother attempting to work therapeutically with men and women whose lives have led them to see the world as their enemy; people for whom the cycle of abuse seems so chronic that there appears no hope - "these people don't deserve your compassion" they say. They are just criminals.

I don't try to argue now - this is an emotive topic and eveyone is entitled to their opinion. I just tend to say that I care about the amount of conflict and abuse in our society and I'm trying to do my little bit to help - what are you doing, except shouting at me?

(not directed at anyone in particular, just naval gazing)

[DianaS]

I think that writing letters of complaint should be a mandatory part of the rehabilitation process. Six letters should be written per week on topics from "leaving the loo seat up", to "b*ggering your cell mate Its not a right or a privalege". Letters should be read each week and spell corrected by fellow inmates (Andy McG could supervise). To folllow a debate of issues and lessons learnt.
The course could be accredited by the Debating Society and rising stars may find themselves in work experience at the Houses of Parliament where they could finish their appretisceship by consorting with some of the arch criminals of our time.

[Petal]

Originally Posted by LMC

If you think cells are comfy, you try sharing a 8 x 12 space containing an open toilet with another adult 23 hours a day - some prisoners are locked up for that long daily because overcrowding leaves insufficient supervisory resources. When I went to a certain young offenders' institution, many of those young men smelled. Really bad. It transpired that they were lucky to get a shower every 2 or 3 days owing to lack of prison officers.

The overcrowding problem in scottish prisons is also due to the fact most of the scottish prisons were built two centuries ago, and until they are replaced with modern builidngs and facilities the conditions will not improve.