A Nasty Muslim

[Dreadful Scathe]

I know this is old news now, but I was truly horrified by the commetn aimed at John Reid : "how dare you come to a muslim area" - a disgusting comment aimed at a member of the government of your own country, which suggests the muslim , Mr Izzadeen, that said it does not consider it HIS government at all. Nasty.

or so I thought...

And then I heard the full comment, which was "How dare you come to a Muslim area when over 1,000 Muslims have been arrested?", and he has a point - being "Arab looking" has increased your chances of being arrested by some degree it seems. Terrorism laws that see you locked up without being charged! Eeek. Funny how the statement is shortened that way in all of the articles I've read

however, the whole idea of "a muslim area" is abhorent - the sort of statement said only by bigots.


comments

[Msfab]

Eh? Im
Who is Mr Izzadeen? and why did say what he said?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

"How dare you come to a Muslim area when over 1,000 Muslims have been arrested?"

OK, put in context ....

1. How many known Muslim terrorists are there is the UK
2. How many Muslim 'activists' are in the UK?
3. How many Black people have been arrested
4. How many Catholics have been arrested

Maybe 1000 isnt so many .....

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

And then I heard the full comment, which was "How dare you come to a Muslim area when over 1,000 Muslims have been arrested?", and he has a point - being "Arab looking" has increased your chances of being arrested by some degree it seems. Terrorism laws that see you locked up without being charged! Eeek. Funny how the statement is shortened that way in all of the articles I've read

30 years ago, substitute "Irish" for "Muslim", and you saw the same thing - actually, much worse, what with internment, massive judicial incomptetence and so on.

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

however, the whole idea of "a muslim area" is abhorent - the sort of statement said only by bigots.

Why?

It's a fact that there are areas, especially in London, where ethnic groups do congregate. Jews in Golders Green, Turks in Wood Green, forumite dancers in Finchley, and so on. Or would you object to the term "Chinatown"?

[El Salsero Gringo]

The bit that I thought was objectionable was the thought that the the Home Secretary should be unwelcome in any part of the UK. Naturally there are Muslim, Jewish, Irish, Carribean areas - but one hopes they welcome people not of those communities. Which I suspect in all cases (except in Mr Izzadeen's mind) they all do.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

The bit that I thought was objectionable was the thought that the the Home Secretary should be unwelcome in any part of the UK.

Well, he's not welcome in my house, it's already fulfilled it's "miserable follicly-challenged gits" quota with me there.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Naturally there are Muslim, Jewish, Irish, Carribean areas - but one hopes they welcome people not of those communities. Which I suspect in all cases (except in Mr Izzadeen's mind) they all do.

In the BBC news article, it seems clear Izzadeen is a typical extremist activist heckler.

So it's a bit of a non-event I reckon.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Why?

What do you mean why? The Home Secretary is interested in the welfare of British Citizens, and I find it abhorent that any immigrants see themselves as somehow "special" and want to claim some sort of superiority.
We are ALL immigrants- at one time, maybe Norse, Celtic, Asian or whatever in origin but society amalgamates all of our heritage into a modern society. A "muslim area" in this context is not at all like an Irish area or a jewish area as a label of the type of people who live there - it has the ring of "only muslims should come here and run our own affairs according to OUR rules" to it. Do you think that I'm way of the mark here, and it was an innocent demographic comment?

To clarify though, it is only this persons comment that annoys me and I could see similar comments from other ethnic groups e.g. A scottish village greeting new English settlers pushing up property prices with crys of "how dare you come here etc..." - and I'd disagree with them too. Its the lack of integration I'm complaining about, not any one particular group.

It's a fact that there are areas, especially in London, where ethnic groups do congregate. Jews in Golders Green, Turks in Wood Green, forumite dancers in Finchley, and so on. Or would you object to the term "Chinatown"?

Not at all, but Ive always been welcomed in any area of Britain Ive been to. Being a non-descript white person Im sure its been far easier for me in some areas than if i had some other ethnic background, but if my experience HAD included bigotry because of my ethnic background, perhaps i'd be even MORE annoyed at comments like this that suggest some people are "not welcome" into "our area".

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

The bit that I thought was objectionable was the thought that the the Home Secretary should be unwelcome in any part of the UK. Naturally there are Muslim, Jewish, Irish, Carribean areas - but one hopes they welcome people not of those communities. Which I suspect in all cases (except in Mr Izzadeen's mind) they all do.

exactly. I would like to believe that his comments are a minority opinion and that such communities are very welcoming - i have no idea if that is true or not.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Not at all, but Ive always been welcomed in any area of Britain Ive been to. Being a non-descript white person Im sure its been far easier for me in some areas than if i had some other ethnic background, but if my experience HAD included bigotry because of my ethnic background, perhaps i'd be even MORE annoyed at comments like this that suggest some people are "not welcome" into "our area".



exactly. I would like to believe that his comments are a minority opinion and that such communities are very welcoming - i have no idea if that is true or not.

Have a walk through Southall cira 10pm as a white person and see the welcome you get

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm obliged to say, I don't like this thread title. If instead it was "A Nasty Jew" I think I'd be extremely angry.

[Dreadful Scathe]

i actually meant to put a question mark - thought i did in fact

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

i actually meant to put a question mark - thought i did in fact

Even so, I don't think "A Nasty Jew?" would have been much better. I'm not entirely sure why that kind of phraseology makes me uneasy - I'm sure you didn't mean to have it sound the way it does (or might) - but it still makes me unhappy.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

What do you mean why?

I meant, why is it objectionable to describe a location as a "XXX area"...?

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

A "muslim area" in this context is not at all like an Irish area or a jewish area as a label of the type of people who live there - it has the ring of "only muslims should come here and run our own affairs according to OUR rules" to it. Do you think that I'm way of the mark here, and it was an innocent demographic comment?

Hmmm, interesting. I didn't really think of it that way, I assumed it was a demographic thing. Whereas you assumed it was a "Sharia Law starts here" kind of thing...

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

To clarify though, it is only this persons comment that annoys me and I could see similar comments from other ethnic groups e.g. A scottish village greeting new English settlers pushing up property prices with crys of "how dare you come here etc..." - and I'd disagree with them too.

Yeah, good thing you'd never get that sort of comment on this forum (when's the next big footie tournament again? )

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Its the lack of integration I'm complaining about, not any one particular group.

This is interesting - and it highlights the specific question of how much "communities" are a positive influence, and how much a drawback.

My view is, that like all these things, they're fine in moderation. Without some community support, minorities would find it extremely tough going in a new country. But in an exteme form, they can lead to ghetto-ization and apartheid-like situations.

To me, it depends on the community attitude towards wider society. If community involvement is alway voluntary, if non-minority strangers are welcomed in the community, and if community members are encouraged to integrate with wider society, it's a good thing. Otherwise, it's bad.

Originally Posted by stewart38

Have a walk through Southall cira 10pm as a white person and see the welcome you get

Yeah, but that's because Southall's a dump. I mean, it's so bad even Funky Lush people didn't like it, and they put up with anything...

I wouldn't walk around a lot of areas in London at 10pm at night.

[Barry Shnikov]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Even so, I don't think "A Nasty Jew?" would have been much better. I'm not entirely sure why that kind of phraseology makes me uneasy - I'm sure you didn't mean to have it sound the way it does (or might) - but it still makes me unhappy.

Without examining the rights and wrongs too closely, I feel that your concerns may partly arise because Jewishness is entangled with race as well as religion. How would everyone feel about 'A nasty Catholic'? Or 'A nasty Mormon'?

[John S]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Being a non-descript white person

Check your avatar, DS!

I agree with your comments, though. There's a world of difference between giving positive support to your own ethnic, religious or national group, and being negative and hostile to others. EG (to answer DJ's point) I'll support the Scotland football team, but despise those who sing that they "hate the f---ing English" because that's ignorant and negative - anyway it would have included my mother, who was an immigrant twice over, from Spain via England!

Unfortunately it's easy for rabble-rousers to play on the (sometimes legitimate) grievances that a section of the population might have, and to heap all the blame for a situation onto that section without taking on any responsibility themselves. We've seen it in the past with majorities persecuting minorities for their success (Gentiles v Jews in Germany, Blacks v Asians in Uganda) or for their relative failure (Whites v Blacks in USA).

What we now have is minorites "getting their retaliation in first" by complaining that the majority population isn't respecting their right to be different. Well, as has been said in this thread, we've all come from immigrant stock at one time and in this country at least have developed generally-accepted common society values. The values change over time, as society absorbs new cultures. I have no problem with someone objecting to those values, pointing out what they think is wrong, choosing to live a different way or even opting out of society - a good example would be the Amish in North America. What I object to is someone with a pick'n'mix philosophy who then uses the society's benefits or rights, (eg freedom of expression) which he would deny to everyone of a different belief system or even to the female half of his own population.

At first I didn't like the title of the thread either, but then when I thought about it, I realised that it was spot on, because if it really was a "muslim area" (and I agree with DS that there should be no such thing) then the guy was refusing to be courteous to his guest, which is surely against the Prophet's direction: "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should be hospitable with his or her guests." Comments from students of Islam welcome!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov

Without examining the rights and wrongs too closely, I feel that your concerns may partly arise because Jewishness is entangled with race as well as religion.

As is Islam, of course, to a point, which is why there was a whole debate about religious hatred / racial hatred a few months back.

In fact, all religions have some degree of ethnic association. Which, of course, is a prime argument for religion being a cultural invention rather than a universally-recognised truth.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Even so, I don't think "A Nasty Jew?" would have been much better. I'm not entirely sure why that kind of phraseology makes me uneasy - I'm sure you didn't mean to have it sound the way it does (or might) - but it still makes me unhappy.

I think we're so used to having labels applied in a negative way in the media. However,I really didnt mean it like that , and if his complaint was against blondes I might have titled the thread "A nasty brunette?" as it would seem relevant in that context. But his complaint defined him as a muslim primarily so "A nasty Muslim?" seemed to be appropriate (with a question mark, as it wasn't intended to be a statement of fact). Also, theres nothing more likely to get people interested than a controversial or emotion provoking title.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov

Without examining the rights and wrongs too closely, I feel that your concerns may partly arise because Jewishness is entangled with race as well as religion. How would everyone feel about 'A nasty Catholic'? Or 'A nasty Mormon'?

Good point, you can still call some one fat but not a wog . Im not trying to be funny or offensive. Its how we use or react to these lables that matters

A nasty catholic doesnt in 2006 anyway make you feel uneasy at a nasty muslim

[Dreadful Scathe]