Videoing practice sessions

[JonD]

Julie and I have started videoing our Tango practice sessions and, apart from the horror of seeing myself dance, it's proving really useful. I used to be convinced that I was the epitome of stylish elegance, a veritable panther; now I know that I lean to the right from the waist, wobble, walk club-footed and resemble an arthritic penguin.

We're currently using my Pentax Optio SV camera in video mode but the LED is quite small and it's difficult to review detail "on the spot". I know nothing about video cameras. Can anyone recommend a good, middle of the range digital video with a reasonable sized display and give me an idea of price?

Thanks

Jon

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by JonD

Julie and I have started videoing our Tango practice sessions and, apart from the horror of seeing myself dance, it's proving really useful. I used to be convinced that I was the epitome of stylish elegance, a veritable panther; now I know that I lean to the right from the waist, wobble, walk club-footed and resemble an arthritic penguin.

We're currently using my Pentax Optio SV camera in video mode but the LED is quite small and it's difficult to review detail "on the spot". I know nothing about video cameras. Can anyone recommend a good, middle of the range digital video with a reasonable sized display and give me an idea of price?

Thanks

Jon

How spooky. I have just been looking at websites as I too need a new video camera for videoing lessons etc.

After having looked round a fair bit I think I have settled on one for about £300 although you can get it cheaper. I figured the benefits to gain from going up to 600-700+ would not be too important for my needs.
The camera is the Canon MV850i. It has good picture clarity, wide lens adaptor and works well in dimly lit conditions. All of these are important to me.
The sound is ok apparently but not as good as some of the more expensive ones.


If anyone else can offer some guidance I would be very interested.

[Cruella]

When i was demoing at a workshop recently a guy asked if he could record the moves. He was using a DVD recorder! Never seen one before, apparently they are very new and haven't been advertised much. He said you put a mini disc into the recorder (looks exactly the same as a video camera),, record, and you can play it back instantly on a DVD player. I'm sure some of you boys would know more about them though.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Cruella

When i was demoing at a workshop recently a guy asked if he could record the moves. He was using a DVD recorder! Never seen one before, apparently they are very new and haven't been advertised much. He said you put a mini disc into the recorder (looks exactly the same as a video camera),, record, and you can play it back instantly on a DVD player. I'm sure some of you boys would know more about them though.

In terms of video quality they're really really bad. Compressing video onto DVD is a very processor intensive task, and DVD recorders have to do it on-the-fly, so they end up doing a poor job. Recording video onto MiniDV tape will give you a higher quality recording which you can then compress onto DVD under controlled conditions. On the other hand, you might not be bothered about image quality.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Paul F

How spooky. I have just been looking at websites as I too need a new video camera for videoing lessons etc.

Not anyone else's lessons (at least without permission) because of copyright issues, and aren't CTA members forbidden from videoing themselves teaching? Grrrrrr.

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Not anyone else's lessons (at least without permission) because of copyright issues, and aren't CTA members forbidden from videoing themselves teaching? Grrrrrr.

Dont worry. I have permission off my teachers.

BTW - Got tired of looking at things and decided to just go ahead and buy one. I went for the Canon mv850i. Its selling for 293 on amazon.co.uk at the minute which is considerably cheaper than high street (comet = £360). Also it comes with the wide-angle attachment. I assumed you would have to buy one but no!!

Hopefully should get it in the next couple of days.

[JonD]

Sounds like the DVD recorders are out.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Paul, when you've got the Canon can you let us know what you think of it?

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by JonD

Sounds like the DVD recorders are out.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Paul, when you've got the Canon can you let us know what you think of it?

Sure will. Yeah stay away from the DVD ones. The miniDV seem to be the best. The media is relatively inexpensive if you use tape which is useful.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Not anyone else's lessons (at least without permission) because of copyright issues, and aren't CTA members forbidden from videoing themselves teaching? Grrrrrr.

Apparently, yep - there are Rules Against That Sort Of Thing

Maybe you go blind? I dunno...

However, let's face it, you're really not too worried about high-quality images, you just want to see yourself, and you want to do this quite frequently for comparison, with minimum format-transfer fuss.

So, if I wanted to video something, I'd use my Sony P3 digital camera - 640X480 resolution, saved as MPEGs, none of this faffing around with transferring formats or media, and a 4GB card gives 88 minutes recording time. Sorted.

[Paul F]

Well, I got the camera this morning

Amazon.co.uk Thats fast!

Not been able to watch the video back on a PC or TV but initial impressions are very good. Its light and small and the tapes were fairly inexpensive. It also makes nice beeping noises which is always good

Will let you know later tonight or tomorrow what its like for playback.

[Gojive]

I hope I'm not stating the bleedin' obvious here (if I am, tough! ), but when you look back at yourself after filming, you may see exaggerated bad bits.

The reason is that when conciously dancing in front of a camera, and especially in a studio type setup, you may not be performing at your best - i.e. no atmosphere etc, to encourage you to 'immerse yourself in the music.

I found that I could instantly recognise obvious faults such as stoooping, but I was also picking things out that I thought were really ugly, when perhaps they weren't quite as bad when just I was just enjoying the dance on the social floor....if that makes sense?

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by Gojive

I hope I'm not stating the bleedin' obvious here (if I am, tough! ), but when you look back at yourself after filming, you may see exaggerated bad bits.

The reason is that when conciously dancing in front of a camera, and especially in a studio type setup, you may not be performing at your best - i.e. no atmosphere etc, to encourage you to 'immerse yourself in the music.

I found that I could instantly recognise obvious faults such as stoooping, but I was also picking things out that I thought were really ugly, when perhaps they weren't quite as bad when just I was just enjoying the dance on the social floor....if that makes sense?

I hate seeing myself on video. Its like when you hear your own voice on a recording Scary!!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gojive

I hope I'm not stating the bleedin' obvious here (if I am, tough! ), but when you look back at yourself after filming, you may see exaggerated bad bits.

The reason is that when conciously dancing in front of a camera, and especially in a studio type setup, you may not be performing at your best - i.e. no atmosphere etc, to encourage you to 'immerse yourself in the music.

I absolutely agree. Do ask someone to video you dancing freestyle at a social dance, if you can arrange it.

[Gojive]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I absolutely agree. Do ask someone to video you dancing freestyle at a social dance, if you can arrange it.

It's well worth doing if you can.

Naturally, everyone here would be curteous enough to ask the venue manager first of course

Again, it might sound an obvious thing to say, but when I asked someone last year if I could film myself and my dance partner at a normal club night, I was initially told "Sorry, but no".

The reason being, that apparently they would need an 'Entertainments Licence' (I think that's what it was), if filming was taking place. Now I have no idea if this was correct or not, but it's worth looking out for.

In the end, I agreed to ensure the camera was concealed, pointing solely at a quiet corner by the stage, and only recording when I was in that corner dancing.

This meant I couldn't set the camera's exposure and focusing properly, and the end result was pretty poor.

[JonD]

I absolutely agree. Do ask someone to video you dancing freestyle at a social dance, if you can arrange it.

A friend took a video of me at a Jive freestyle once - I got all self-conscious when I realised what was going on! It didn't look too bad though, particularly the first half of the track. It might be more difficult at Tango as it's a progressive dance and the floor is normally packed. I'll try and set it up once I get a proper camera. It's a great idea and we'll probably use it for both Jive and Tango - I'll make sure I ask first although I doubt if either Nelson or Ruth would object.

At the practice sessions I haven't found that I tense up too much, probably because it's only Julie and I looking at the results! We tend to focus on a particular figure/element of movement and the video is great for that. I guess it's human nature to focus on the stuff that looks horrible but the results can be quite pleasing as well. We were working on a giro last week and it was good to see it getting better and better as we addressed each point in turn - from gross errors like leaning in toward my partner to little things about foot position. Towards the end we danced through the move several times in a row and I was quite chuffed at how well it was working.

[Paul F]

Oops , nearly forgot to post the outcome.

The verdict, on a scale of 1-10, I would give it 8

An excellent camera overall. I have not tried out many of the features apart from the main ones to me - night mode, playback, photo, mic sensitivity and the zoom and other little tit-bits (there are a lot).

Essentially the recording and playback is superb. With the wide angle lense attachment wow.
Its also got a widescreen mode. You can pretty much get one whole side of a room in ! Of course, depends how big your room is
That means that if you have a widescreen tv you can get a really good feel for a progressive dance as you can see a great deal of it before you dissapear behind the camera

Im not going to give a blow by blow account but the only slightly negative thing I could say is that the motor is ever so slightly noticeable but, lets face it, you are not going to notice on playback unless you were listening for it.

Very good camera and for the price

[David Bailey]

Another thing that occurred to me - my Tango class is in a proper dance studio, with one wall covered in a mirror. I only twigged how useful these are when starting with them (OK, I'm very slow ), to see myself and my own posture whilst dancing.

And of course, to see how big my belly seems to look

[JonD]

Oops , nearly forgot to post the outcome.

Thanks Paul. It sounds just the ticket. I'll get on Amazon later and order one!

One of the studios Julie and I use has mirrors and they are really useful - it's just that I keep bending my head round to un-natural angles to look at them and then recoiling in horror at the result! I'm sure they are distorted ......

[JonD]

I got the Canon on Friday and tried it out at the Tango Mango on Sunday. It's great - easy to use the basic functions and the picture quality is good. The LCD is large enough to allow for "on-site" review and it's easy to transfer the images from the SD Card to PC. (It doesn't come with any tapes and the enclosed 16Mb MMC card is a bit of a joke - I spent a fair bit extra on a 1Gb SD Card, some tapes, a bag to hold it and a rather natty little tripod all from a local camera shop).

Julie and I videoed ourselves for an hour as we worked on a couple of things. I was really pleased with the results - not just the video quality but the way our dancing looked. There's a touch of "Banana Man" when I walk outside to the left and my feet could be tidier but overall it looked alright. I was even more amazed after Julie videoed me dancing freestyle with Gisela - one of the teachers. I was a bit nervous and that shows but the dancing looks a hell of a lot better than it felt! Part of that is Gisela making me look good but I was still chuffed.

An excellent bit of kit. Thanks for the recommendation Paul!