Its offical - ladies can lead a break!

[Gary]

Originally posted by cerocmetro


Sally coming back to your point, if you are serious about "spreading the word.." we could be changing the whole balance of lead and follow.

I think I read somewhere something along the lines of "a good leader indicates a move, then follows the follower", a Zen-ish thing that I've been trying to internalise. I think I'm getting better at responding to what the follow is doing, rather than assuming that I'm just "running the show"

As regards shifting to NZ, yes this is true, but not until November 2004. When we do move, we will ironically have more time for workshops, we will be back every 12 weeks.

It's not that far from NZ to Sydney *hint* *hint*

[Brady]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I have tried a pre-arranged signal with a few partners for a break, I lift the hand up about and inch, then back down again, rapidly, on the beat before, and repeat on the break beat. It worked O.K. with one or two.

Going completely against what you are taught as a beginner at Ceroc, another option that can work quite effectively to lead either a break or a slow down of the tempo of your dance is a small bit of pressure with your thumbs on the follows hands. This will hopefully signal to her that something different is about to happen (that is if you hadn't already been using your thumbs ). This is obviously not taught to beginners to avoid the crushing of knuckles, etc., but as we become more experienced, we should be able to use these options effectively and safely.

[Sal]

I am afraid that I was not brave enought to try backleading a break with anyone who was not on the workshop. I was working on the principle that at least the guys from the workshop would have an idea of what I was up to. I have found that placing a thumb on the back of the guys hand is such an odd sensation, that they stop immediately.

However, I also found that the guys were finding the breaks of their own accord, and interpreting the music beautifully. I think that the workshope has really made an impression - keep it up guys, it was brill!

[Franck]

Originally posted by Brady
This will hopefully signal to her that something different is about to happen (that is if you hadn't already been using your thumbs ).

This is the crucial part, and this subject was discussed before, the best way to lead your partner into a break, or a walk etc... is to have a very light lead the rest of the time. The more subtle your hand hold / lead is the more your partner becomes aware of the slightest change in pressure or direction.
In fact, using your thumb is a very crude (but effective )way of stopping your partner, often taught in the side to side freeze. Ideally your lead should be so subtle normally that the slightest pressure inside the hand will be enough!
This also assumes that your partner is a good dancer and isn't relying on you for balance or momentum, as in that case, most of your energies will be diverted from leading to keeping your partner upright!

As for ladies leading the breaks and the changes, I'm all for it, Adam did a great job of explaining the mechanics of it, and many women are very good at suggesting style during the dance. I reckon everyone benefits from a more stylish / involved dance. However, as many women will know, not all men lead equally, and so it will be for women hi-jacking the lead... If women want to start leading, they should read all they can about the necessary technique, and possibly learn to lead during the classes as well... Timing and subtlety are king!
I really like gcapell's quote, nobody should be forcing anything on anybody...

Really glad the debate is building up, the more we think and experiment, the better we all get!

Franck.

[Deb]

It was pointed out to me today that I haven't made a post on the forum for a few weeks so I had better get my act together and write something, so what better a topic could i get my teeth into than this.

First of all I wish I was still in the UK so I could attend the workshop in July. Actually, one of our Le Boppers will be there at the end of July.. what date will it be?

2nd, when you come to NZ you had better stop by Melbourne on the way.

3rd, One of my favourite things about partner dancing is the connection between partners. Sometimes you have great dances with people because you really connect with them for one reason or another and other times it's not so great. I think that if you have a good connection with someone it is great if you can PLAY to the song and react to eachother's impulses. If you don't connect then it is probably not the right time or person to PLAY with otherwise you will end up in a tug-of-war (not fun).

I think that both people can PLAY, either partner can instigate the fun but like in any other situation if one doesn't like it, don't do it.

Deb

[Sandy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Yes

And once you've got them, they can't get away!!!

Steve

How many weeks is it now Steve till you come up to sunny Aberdeen???

I promise not to break your arm

Sandy

[Sandy]

Originally posted by cerocmetro

Finally I would like to say that we had such a brilliant time in Aberdeen. We have never been made to feel so welcome and loved every minute of it.

Adam

It was a brilliant weekend, full of admiration for Mandy who at 5 months (?) pregnant managed to last all day Saturday, Saturday night and all day Sunday and was still on two feet at the end. I was totally shattered and don't remember the drive home!

Sandy

[DavidY]

I'd love to go on a workshop about breaks & am sorry I couldn't go on this one because it's something I'd really like to improve.

If I know the tune, I can usually spot a break coming and know when it happens, but the thing I find tricky is making sure I'm not in the middle of something too complicated on the beat when the break 'arrives'.

I'm not clever enough to work out how many beats I have before a break & how many beats each move will take - I try to work it out & usually miscalculate and find that I'm doing something stupid like passing back to back in the middle of a Pretzel at the crucial instant :sorry - and I have no idea how to 'break' there (or even how someone would lead me into one.)

How do people get this right? Are other people cleverer than me at working the timing out? Or can you just 'break' in the middle of any move whatsoever?

Thanks,
David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidY
If I know the tune, I can usually spot a break coming and know when it happens, but the thing I find tricky is making sure I'm not in the middle of something too complicated on the beat when the break 'arrives'.

Nothing 'clever' about it David, but it does involve a bit of practise and many 'missed' breaks...

One of the main lesson to take away, is that it's ok to fit a few very simple moves in your dancing, you don't have to dance pretzels and double hatchflick catapults all the time... Give yourself (and your partner) a break and do manspins, armjives, first moves etc... This will give you more time to think, and if necessary the opportunity to extend one of the above moves so that you can hit the break, or the phrase in the music or whatever else with the move, position of your choice...
To start with, you might find that you end up doing a very long Armjive prior to a break you know is coming, but with practise and confidence, you'll get quite good at it!

Cheers and good luck,

Franck.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidY
How do people get this right? Are other people cleverer than me at working the timing out? Or can you just 'break' in the middle of any move whatsoever?

{damn browser just crashed!!}

First; I am not claiming that I get this right all the time. (or even most of the time )

In summary, I think that you need to be flexable in your moves; if a break comes in the middle of a move you can...
- panic and rush the move, then try and use the remainder of the break for something (2/10)
- ignore it and finish the move (3/10)
- put the move on pause while you gyrate/pose for a few beats (4/10)
- discard the rest of the move and throw yourself into a dramatic pose to freeze/gyrate for a while (5/10)
- use the start of the break to 'bounce' into a reverse of how you got to that point in the move (6/10)
- elongate the rest of the move to take up the rest of the break (7/10)
- plant your self and turn the move into a seducer/dip/lean from where you are so that they rise to continue with the end of the break (8/10)
- turn the move into something else that matches the mood of the break (9/10)

I also think that it's to do with the way you think on moves as you dance - I'm lucky if I know what move we are in now let alone what move we will be in next. If you are thinking on the next move while doing one move it is a lot easier to derail the train of thought with an "Oh ****: BREAK!" interjection.

{BTW B2B in a pretzel is perfect; just take the 'free' hand lower to a flat handed hold with the other still in a half-nelson and stalk in a circle for a few beats... works for me. }

Origionally posted by Franck
To start with, you might find that you end up doing a very long Armjive prior to a break you know is coming, but with practise and confidence, you'll get quite good at it!

yea! I'm really good at arm jives now!!!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Franck
In fact, using your thumb is a very crude (but effective )way of stopping your partner, often taught in the side to side freeze. Ideally your lead should be so subtle normally that the slightest pressure inside the hand will be enough!

I find that rather than use your thumb on the back of the ladies hand (which is rather taboo as everyone says not to do it) you can more effectively use your forefinger - try it, it works. Athough the first time you do it your partner always looks at your finger as if it was being naughty!

I normally only use the forefinger if I'm going to hold my partner out there for a while and want her to wiggle or giggle or something to fit the music. For a brief pause you can lead it with a change in pressure and by not leading anything... ..and then leading something.

[Jon]

humm not quite sure how I could get my fore finger on top of the ladies hand in order to pause her, not quickly anyway.

I agree with Frank the thumb is the norm to indicate she should be pausing, although the thumb is not really needed if your a strong lead and dance with the same person alot. A pull down and locking of your hand/arm should be enough to tell her she's stopping.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I suggest wiring yourself up with a large battery so that mild electric shocks can be administered to the follower if they dont follow correctly. Also if they miss a subtle lead, reinforce it next time round with a few volts, they'll quickly learn.... and thank you for it later when it becomes automatic.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I suggest wiring yourself up with a large battery so that mild electric shocks can be administered

they'll quickly learn.... and thank you for it later when it becomes automatic.

DS, you been using the "Rabbit"?????



Sandy

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Sandy
DS, you been using the "Rabbit"?????



Sandy

which possibility leads one to ask, where about your person (given that you are not known for wearing long sleeves) would the implement be secreted????????

cx

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jon
humm not quite sure how I could get my fore finger on top of the ladies hand in order to pause her, not quickly anyway.

I usually dance with my forefinger down the side of the lady's hand. She would hook her fingers over my middle finger. This gives me a lot more communication in the lead without it getting too strong or moving too much. Some people call this a pistol grip.

From this grip it is really easy to slide my forefinger onto the top of the lady's fingers. I don't aim for the back of the hand - that can get painful. I would end up holding her knuckles. I dont squeeze - there is probably the same pressure as I would use to hold a phone. This is enough pressure to stop the majority of good followers. And those that miss the lead aren't going to get hurt.


(When I first started using this pistol grip, my middle finger really hurt for a while. It showed me just how much strain can be put on the hand without thinking about it.)

David

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Chicklet


which possibility leads one to ask, where about your person (given that you are not known for wearing long sleeves) would the implement be secreted????????

cx

yep Chicklet I wondered about that too???

Sandy

[Grant]

Originally posted by Sandy
yep Chicklet I wondered about that too???

Sandy

i'll bet you're thinking "Duracell bunny".

Grant

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Grant
i'll bet you're thinking "Duracell bunny".

Grant

That wasn't the bunny I was thinking of....

J

[Graham]

Originally posted by Jayne
That wasn't the bunny I was thinking of....

J

But the Duracell part's probably a good idea - I mean, you'd want one that went on....and on....and on.....and on.....

Don't you think?