Its offical - ladies can lead a break!

[Fran]

Just come back form a "fabby" work shop in Aberdeen with Adam and Mandy-. I think it is safe to say that all who attended had a great time and Adam and Mandy were excellent.

One of the hightlights was the section on breaks when Adam discussed the appropriateness of ladies leading a break if the man with whom she is dancing misses them. There was a very logical explanation given - which to sum it up was that the men are concentrating on moves, what comes next etc, that it is understandable if the build up to potential breaks are missed. Ladies however do have more time to anticipate the breaks coming as they liten to the music. The proof of the pudding was when he reversed the roles and all ladies breaked in time to the music with out fail!!!!!!!



fran.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Fran
One of the hightlights was the section on breaks when Adam discussed the appropriateness of ladies leading a break if the man with whom she is dancing misses them. There was a very logical explanation given - which to sum it up was that the men are concentrating on moves, what comes next etc, that it is understandable if the build up to potential breaks are missed. Ladies however do have more time to anticipate the breaks coming as they liten to the music. The proof of the pudding was when he reversed the roles and all ladies breaked in time to the music with out fail!!!!!!!



fran.

I've found that when I'm dancing the followers part with another man it's amost essential to lead the break - unless you want to sail straight through it as if it wasn't there at all! There seems to be an alternative school of thought that goes 'I'll bet I can extrapolate from this break in the music until the next time the beat kicks in'. Or so it seems when you're being led. It's a bit like the DJ at a wedding who gets everyone to sing along to something like Summer Loving and then cuts the music out before the chorus so he can hear his brainwashed audience sing without the music. Then when he brings the music up you're always singing in the wrong place. Like any right thinking dancer I blame the dj.

Personally, I think that you always need to do something with the breaks. And it doesn't always have to be playing statues, it just needs to be dramatic or, as it's me, comedic - like the kick in the goolies given to the Tramp with dramatic/comedic/paramedic requiring effect at this years Blackpool champs!

Of course, the last thing you should ever do with a break is behave as if it wasn't there. It's like ignoring a Give-Way sign and driving out into traffic. There are many songs that have breaks and there are break-free versions of well known songs that usually have breaks that djs use to try and trick us. The only thing to do is to put the breaks in where they should be - although this does make your partners think you're mental. Which in my case just gives the game away a bit earlier than usual...

...and of course, the dj is, as always, to blame!

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Fran
Just come back form a "fabby" work shop in Aberdeen with Adam and Mandy-. I think it is safe to say that all who attended had a great time and Adam and Mandy were excellent.

Can't agree more Fran....a great workshop, by two great teachers. Enjoyed our wee dance at the end

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Fran
Just come back form a "fabby" work shop in Aberdeen with Adam and Mandy-. I think it is safe to say that all who attended had a great time and Adam and Mandy were excellent.

Absolutely Fran! Adam and Mandy were fantastic - the Saturday "Dirty Dancing" workshop was brilliant and so many fabulous moves Today's "musical interpretation" certainly sent us all away with plenty to think about - what an "awesome" weekend it's been (isn't that right Niall?)

Well done Franck for asking them to come up and teach

And I totally agree Fran, great to have the "teacher's" approval on leading the breaks

[Jayne]

Just wanted to echo what's already been said - two great days of workshops, particularly Sunday's.

Quick question - who does that "body to body" song??? It's been going round my head ever since the workshop...

Cheers,
Jayne

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne
Quick question - who does that "body to body" song??? It's been going round my head ever since the workshop...

Yes, brilliant workshops and some fabulous music!

The 'body to body' song is called Body 2 body, by Samantha Mumba...

It's available on Amazon on the "Gotta Tell You" album by Samantha Mumba.

Cheers,

Franck.

[spindr]

Hmmm, not really sure what you mean here by "leading a break" --- are we back to "playing statues" again? Is it ok for the leader to sabotage/hijack a lead from a follower?

Ok, I'll admit, my musicality has really sucked in the past -- but what helped wasn't followers forcing me into breaks -- it was the fact that they *let me know* that I had missed one.

Now, that I've got so that I can hear (some of) the breaks --- I can use a number of different options to highlight them (or hesitations, or whatever).
If I'm (back-)led into a freeze, then that's going to limit things considerably.

So, if the leader's "receptive to encouragement" it'd be good for the follower to indicate that there *was* a break.

Personally, I'd really prefer that followers don't backlead me into a freeze, but that they should feel free to let me know if they think I've failed to lead something appropriate to a break.

Neil.

[Dreadful Scathe]

but if the lady does lead you into a break ..should you have a kit kat?

[Fran]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Enjoyed our wee dance at the end

thankyou, I really enjoyed it to, it was a great way to end the weekend. looking forward to catching you at the end of the month party for another. I will be assertive and ask!

fran

[Gadget]

OK, I missed the Sunday workshop, but just so that we're all talking about the same thing...

- What is a 'break' ?
Is it an instramental twiddly bit (for want of a better term)? Is it the gap between a verse and chorus? Is it where the tune 'pads' out with nothing much? Is it where the beat stops for a beat (you know what I mean)...

- Why should the dance outline these parts of the song?
because it fits better? because the music has let you? Because everyone else does?

- What is it that the best instructors recommended for breaks ?
Playing 'statues' and wiggling a bit (Posing)? a dip/drop/lean/seducer? somthing dramatic?

Personally I prefer a flowing style of dance, so I agree with spindr when he winces at the 'statues' idea - I am unsure of the technical 'feel' of how a lady could lead a break; someone will have to show me on Tuesday before I can comment.

[Sal]

Originally posted by spindr
Hmmm, not really sure what you mean here by "leading a break" --- are we back to "playing statues" again? Is it ok for the leader to sabotage/hijack a lead from a follower?

If I'm (back-)led into a freeze, then that's going to limit things considerably.

Personally, I'd really prefer that followers don't backlead me into a freeze, but that they should feel free to let me know if they think I've failed to lead something appropriate to a break.

Some guys get so threatened by a woman taking initiative!

We were taught the proper way to help the lead rather than hijacking it. We will not interupt in the middle of complicated moves, just if we feel it is appropriate at that moment. You may be surprised to note that the followers don't want to upset the flow/musicality of a dance.

We were also shown musical statues are not the only things to do, we can be surprisingly inventive.

Many of the men on the course found it a help, as they could concentrate on other aspects of the dance and leave this one to us. Maybe you should try it before knocking it.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget

- What is it that the best instructors recommended for breaks ?
Playing 'statues' and wiggling a bit (Posing)? a dip/drop/lean/seducer? somthing dramatic?

Personally I prefer a flowing style of dance, so I agree with spindr when he winces at the 'statues' idea - I am unsure of the technical 'feel' of how a lady could lead a break; someone will have to show me on Tuesday before I can comment.

Well Adam was saying that you don't have to be a statue ...and very often a long break can look pretty stupid and gave several excellent examples of different 'breaks' to which we could improvise.

Pausing for a second in an appropriate move can look great and very dramatic but to other breaks or changes just altering the pace and slowing down can be equally effective. But if the music stops even ofr a second it's a bit of a clue that the dancers should as well. The point made at the workshop was that the only time everyone stopped at a break was when the women were leading

I have a to agree that the women can do this better ( on the whole...for reasons explained at the ws) and many men are too busy thinking of the next move ( or sequence) to listen to either the words or the music properly and the dance becomes nothing more than just a number of moves..........yes I know that's what it is anyway but there's no interaction with a partner or the music just moves. And this is understandable when we all start dancing but more experienced men know plenty of moves so could now easily start playing around with the music and the words and dance with their partners.

Anyway, that's what I took from the Sunday workshop. My problem ( amongst others) is I can't always hear the words so can't make any attempt to interpret them. Maybe need to read all the words first :sorry

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Fran
I will be assertive and ask!

fran

Maybe I should just be a gentleman and ask you first

[DavidB]

I wasn't at the workshop, so this is based on what people have said in this thread.

I think the argument goes that ladies have far less to think about in a dance, so they should be able to listen to the music more. Could someone explain to me then why so few women seem listen to the music? Or is it that so few men listen either, so what is the point?


For various reasons it is difficult in Modern Jive to lead the lady into a break. It is a lot easier when she knows it is coming. (I have a feeling that the success of 'hitting the breaks' when the lady is backleading is partly due to this.) Listening to the music should be encouraged for both the man and the lady.


I was taught not to keep doing moves that the lady doesn't like. eg if she doesn't like improvising, then don't force it. If she doesn't like spinning, then don't spin her (the exception is when Gus is following - he needs the practice!) The leader has this choice, the follower doesn't. So if the ladies start hijacking the lead like this, they should aim to be considerate as well - if your man doesn't like it, then don't keep doing it.


It is nice to see people getting away from the Madame Tussauds look when a break happens. Hopefully the next stage is to start interpreting the 95% of the song that has music, and not just the 5% of silence.


But it is even nicer to have people 'thinking' after a workshop, and not just trying to 'remember' a move. That sounds like a good workshop.

David

[Dance Demon]

personally(without getting into the big"leader -follower" debate ) I think it's cool to hit the breaks in a piece of music, and if led well the follower should have no option but to follow suit. However the point that Adam was making in the workshop was that if a record has a lot of breaks, you don't have to hit them all, and they dont all have to be "statues". If a song has a definite break, where no music is heard for a few beats, why do people continue to dance to silence? That would suggest that they are not listening to the music that they are dancing to, or are just going through the motions, and not bothering to interpret it.

And yes it was a great workshop.....probably one of the best that I have attended, and it made me rethink my whole approach to dancing to different styles and speeds of music

[Fran]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Maybe I should just be a gentleman and ask you first

that would be lovely. I have never been any good at the asking bit, not because I dont want to at all. I am just not all that confident about it.

I did'nt intend to laydown a gaunlet for femisim on the dance floor when I started this thread. I love being lead, I like being a girl - it a nice change from doing wood & metal work most days.
As people who were on the workshop have said, the description which Adam and Mandy gave of why and when it was appropriate for a woman to "lead" a break occasionaly in a dance was very well put and recieved, and that it did not mean playing musical statues. Although I am sorry to the man whoes arm I may have hurt in the process!!!: wink: I was just feeling liberated!!

fran

[spindr]

Originally posted by Sal
Some guys get so threatened by a woman taking initiative!

I love the woman taking the initiative; in fact I often lead a comb and just let the lady have some personal time to improvise (try it chaps, it's usually has an interesting effect).

[B}We were taught the proper way to help the lead rather than hijacking it.[/b]

Ah, I think you mis-read it --- I expect the lady to improvise, hijack and sabotage me! Similarly, I expect to be able to return the compliment and be allowed to sabotage the follower's sabotage, etc.

We will not interupt in the middle of complicated moves, just if we feel it is appropriate at that moment. You may be surprised to note that the followers don't want to upset the flow/musicality of a dance.

Sounds reasonable...

We were also shown musical statues are not the only things to do, we can be surprisingly inventive.

...sounds very reasonable

Many of the men on the course found it a help, as they could concentrate on other aspects of the dance and leave this one to us. Maybe you should try it before knocking it.

I think as a leader it might be a bit too tempting to be lazy and rely on the follower --- which is fine if you've both done the course.

Neil.

[Bill]

Originally posted by DavidB
For various reasons it is difficult in Modern Jive to lead the lady into a break. It is a lot easier when she knows it is coming.

But it is even nicer to have people 'thinking' after a workshop, and not just trying to 'remember' a move. That sounds like a good workshop.

It was a great workshop David...... best I've been on for a while and very productive.

I was going to disagree with the comment about being difficult to lead a woman into a break but yes it obvioulsy helps if she recognises the track or if she is quite experienced herself.

Probably because I break or slow down quite frequently a lot of the women up here are now used to it so they don't seem to find it a problem. But as folk are saying it wasn't about doing nothing during a break or change to the song but continuing to think about the music as there may be a counter beat ( no idea if that is a 'real' term). But the whole idea of finding the half beat ( to things like Mambo No 5) or doubling the beat to slower tracks to vary the tempo and rythm within one song was great to hear and hopefully will have a positive effect on everyone's dancing.

It certainly made me think even more about interpretation and 'feeling' the song and listening even more closely to the lyrics.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Bill
It was a great workshop David...... best I've been on for a while and very productive.

I have only been on a few workshops but I have to agree that this one was great. There has been so much talk on this forum about musical interpretation but the workshop made it much clearer for me. I tried out a few of the ideas last night. My Matrix impressions (slow motion) seemed to work and I actually tried to interpret the lyrics which was a new concept for me. Other ideas from the workshop were more difficult to implement but at least I know what I need to work on.

It certainly made me think

It certainly did that to me as well. Which was not easy on Sunday after a couple of late nights!

Grant