Why are some male leads so nasty? (not in the American sense, I hasten to add)

[Terpsichorea]

I don't know whether it's something idiosyncratic about the Ceroc venue I go to, but a lot of the male leads seem to have a rather rude attitude towards Beginner/Early Intermediate dancers, in that they either can't be arsed to dance with them, or treat them dismissively when they deign to do so.

My wife (who has been dancing for two months) was reduced to tears last night when a man she was dancing with broke off mid-song and left her in the middle of the dancefloor. He also constantly criticised her for her inability to follow some fairly complex Intermediate choreography. My wife is a good dancer (I should know, I dance with her regularly) and her confidence took a real knock because of this. I think this is an exceptionally crap attitude, but as I watched the picking and choosing of partners in freestyle, I noticed that all the men cherry-picked Intermediate/Advanced dancers, leaving a lot of Beginner wallflowers hovering on the margins of the dancefloor.

I think perhaps this a natural consequence of the gender balance of Ceroc - the guys are in a minority, and so they can pick and choose. But I'm saddened that so many guys (at my venue at least) seem to treat less advanced dancers in such a Cavalier fashion. I just don't see the point in barking orders non-stop at a beginner for failing to instantly grasp moves which she's never seen before.

Rant over. Sorry. But this really p*ssed me off!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

I don't know whether it's something idiosyncratic about the Ceroc venue I go to,

Probably yes, and your wife has just been unlucky too. You get annoying arrogant people everywhere but not in great enough numbers to let it worry you - avoid the AT snobs if you can though

Also, thanks for letting us know indirectly you are a man

I just don't see the point in barking orders non-stop at a beginner for failing to instantly grasp moves which she's never seen before.

My wife once got a partner in the lucky dip at the blackpool competition who told her what move he was going to do before he did it. Kind of spoiled the dance for her If you need to speak while you dance, then you cant dance - in my opinion

[Terpsichorea]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Probably yes, and your wife has just been unlucky too. You get annoying arrogant people everywhere but not in great enough numbers to let it worry you - avoid the AT snobs if you can though

Also, thanks for letting us know indirectly you are a man




My wife once got a partner in the lucky dip at the blackpool competition who told her what move he was going to do before he did it. Kind of spoiled the dance for her If you need to speak while you dance, then you cant dance - in my opinion

To be fair, I guess men don't have the monopoly on irritating behaviour - I danced with an Advanced (ie competitive) dancer recently and it was bloody awful - she looked about as interested and involved as I do when I'm maximising space in the dishwasher! I'm not Fred Astaire, but really...

[drathzel]

i am sorry to hear this, its not nice as a follower to feel overlooked cuz you are not good enough. I often feel that people need to see me dance before they ask me, just to make sure i am good enough because they dont know me. This has been backed up by a guy who aske me to dance by saying "i dont normally dance with people who i havent seen on the dancefloor but i will take a chance with you as everyone else is dancing" i nearly said no but thought if i could dance well it might change his oppinion and dance with others without seeing them! He came back later for a second dance so i guess i passed

it is good however to see people (especially men) notice this and hopefully will then be more aware of the beginners and who they ask to dance.

As a follow i often avoid really fantastic dancers as i feel that i will dissapoint them and when i lead i do the same with the advanced women. I once led Lory when i was learning to lead and spent my entire dance wetting myself that it wasnt good enough! However Lory smiled and said thanks and i felt better!

i think you can have a balance of beginner, intermeds and advanced dancers and still have the best night/dances

[StokeBloke]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

I don't know whether it's something idiosyncratic about the Ceroc venue I go to, but a lot of the male leads seem to have a rather rude attitude towards Beginner/Early Intermediate dancers, in that they either can't be arsed to dance with them, or treat them dismissively when they deign to do so.

My wife (who has been dancing for two months) was reduced to tears last night when a man she was dancing with broke off mid-song and left her in the middle of the dance floor. He also constantly criticised her for her inability to follow some fairly complex Intermediate choreography. My wife is a good dancer (I should know, I dance with her regularly) and her confidence took a real knock because of this. I think this is an exceptionally crap attitude, but as I watched the picking and choosing of partners in freestyle, I noticed that all the men cherry-picked Intermediate/Advanced dancers, leaving a lot of Beginner wallflowers hovering on the margins of the dancefloor.

I think perhaps this a natural consequence of the gender balance of Ceroc - the guys are in a minority, and so they can pick and choose. But I'm saddened that so many guys (at my venue at least) seem to treat less advanced dancers in such a Cavalier fashion. I just don't see the point in barking orders non-stop at a beginner for failing to instantly grasp moves which she's never seen before.

Rant over. Sorry. But this really p*ssed me off!

That's a pretty low way to behave. As for the girl's getting cherry picked.... why don't they ask, rather than wait to be asked? The guys who don't dance with beginners are missing a golden opportunity to improve their abilities as a lead. It sounds like the dancer you're talking about has forgotten the importance of being an excellent lead - if he ever was in the first place. If you need to explain a move to do it, you need more practice at it before you attempt it in free style!

I would be inclined to bring this behaviour (not necessarily naming names) the venue manager's attention. They can't see everything, but once alerted to the attitude shown to their new dancers I am sure they would be as equally horrified as we all are! They can't fix it if they don't know it's happening. Rant here.... it's great for letting off steam... but rant to the venue manager too, it's their job to look after all the dancers at their venue

[Gav]

Some people are just nasty or inconsiderate and unfortunately, some of them will learn to dance.
The only solution is for someone to have a word with them. I'd tell the organiser and let them deal with it if I were you.

If only Ceroc could buy some bad egg detectors from Willy Wonka and have everyone pass through them on the way in.

[Terpsichorea]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

That's a pretty low way to behave. As for the girl's getting cherry picked.... why don't they ask, rather than wait to be asked? The guys who don't dance with beginners are missing a golden opportunity to improve their abilities as a lead. It sounds like the dancer you're talking about has forgotten the importance of being an excellent lead - if he ever was in the first place. If you need to explain a move to do it, you need more practice at it before you attempt it in free style!

I would be inclined to bring this behaviour (not necessarily naming names) the venue manager's attention. They can't see everything, but once alerted to the attitude shown to their new dancers I am sure they would be as equally horrified as we all are! They can't fix it if they don't know it's happening. Rant here.... it's great for letting off steam... but rant to the venue manager too, it's their job to look after all the dancers at their venue

Aye fair play - you don't see many of the women asking for dances at our venue - perhaps it should be stated, more forcibly, that it's OK for them to ask, this doesn't seem to have been happening in recent weeks.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

My wife (who has been dancing for two months) was reduced to tears last night when a man she was dancing with broke off mid-song and left her in the middle of the dancefloor. He also constantly criticised her for her inability to follow some fairly complex Intermediate choreography.

Sorry to hear about that experience.

As with any anti-social behaviour, I'd strongly recommend talking to the venue manager in the first instance, and asking the venue manager to have a word with the offending party. That's what the venue managers are there for.

We should complain more, we put up with a lot of cr&p as dancers, and we should stand up for our right to enjoy ourselves.

[Terpsichorea]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Sorry to hear about that experience.

As with any anti-social behaviour, I'd strongly recommend talking to the venue manager in the first instance, and asking the venue manager to have a word with the offending party. That's what the venue managers are there for.

We should complain more, we put up with a lot of cr&p as dancers, and we should stand up for our right to enjoy ourselves.

I suppose at the end of the day, some people forget that the whole thing is supposed to be fun, not a gruelling ordeal. The best dances I've had haven't been with women who were schooled in every move under the sun, but with those that were having fun, enjoying the moves and the connection it gave them with another person.

[Paulthetrainer]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

she looked about as interested and involved as I do when I'm maximising space in the dishwasher!

Please try and have some respect for other peoples hobbies!

Shocked to hear about what happened to your wife - I'm amazed that there are people who do that. On the plus side I reckon your wife could easily dance for the rest of her life without having to endure that kind of situation again.

I'm preaching to the converted here I know, but at the end of the day we all occasionally end up dancing with someone and realising that we'd rather be elsewhere, however, but then its only 4 minutes out of our lives so we just tough it out till the end of the track.

[Dreadful Scathe]

no, no, no... you fake an injury

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

no, no, no... you fake an injury

Lol done worse than that once. Had a woman who said mid dance that she couldn't be bothered with the dance anymore!!! I carried on for another 30 odd seconds then made out that my phone in my pocket rang. Pretended to answer it and walked off.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by woodface

Lol done worse than that once. Had a woman who said mid dance that she couldn't be bothered with the dance anymore!!! I carried on for another 30 odd seconds then made out that my phone in my pocket rang. Pretended to answer it and walked off.

i think in those circumstances you were quite within your rights to say "me neither" and walk of with no other excuse needed

this reminds me of the fake an orgasm thread, in true Fast Show style, you could claim you've just had one and end the dance that way

[Twirlie Bird]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

My wife (who has been dancing for two months) was reduced to tears last night when a man she was dancing with broke off mid-song and left her in the middle of the dancefloor.

This 'almost' happened to me after I had been dancing for only a very short while. This guy took me on the dance floor and it was obvious very quickly that he was disappointed at my inability to follow his lead and go into all the fancy moves he was trying to pull. It was awful. I really had the thought that he was going to walk off the dance floor and leave me standing there any minute. However he endured the whole song with me.

Since then I have made a point of not dancing with him. He often walks in my direction at the start of a dance. Funny as it's always the time my phone rings, or I am off to the bar or the toilet. The best one is when my husband clocks him heading my way so starts kissing me.

Please tell your wife not to worry about people like that.

Twirlie Bird
-x-

[Gav]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

As with any anti-social behaviour, I'd strongly recommend talking to the venue manager in the first instance, and asking the venue manager to have a word with the offending party. That's what the venue managers are there for.

We should complain more, we put up with a lot of cr&p as dancers, and we should stand up for our right to enjoy ourselves.

There was one banned from CerocFusion fairly recently for just such behaviour. He'd had several warnings but the complaints kept coming.
Some will mend their ways and others will just have to be banned.
The point is, that if no-one tells them off, they'll keep on doing it.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

I would be inclined to bring this behaviour (not necessarily naming names) the venue manager's attention. They can't see everything, but once alerted to the attitude shown to their new dancers I am sure they would be as equally horrified as we all are! They can't fix it if they don't know it's happening. Rant here.... it's great for letting off steam... but rant to the venue manager too, it's their job to look after all the dancers at their venue

Originally Posted by DavidJames

As with any anti-social behaviour, I'd strongly recommend talking to the venue manager in the first instance, and asking the venue manager to have a word with the offending party. That's what the venue managers are there for.

We should complain more, we put up with a lot of cr&p as dancers, and we should stand up for our right to enjoy ourselves.

Originally Posted by Gav

There was one banned from CerocFusion fairly recently for just such behaviour. He'd had several warnings but the complaints kept coming.
Some will mend their ways and others will just have to be banned.
The point is, that if no-one tells them off, they'll keep on doing it.

There you go. I was just about to say that I don't really see what a venue manager can do about it. I'd agree that it's totally rude and reprehensible behaviour. But when someone pays to attend your venue, then you can't really tell them off for being rude. Sleazy, yanking, smelly, etc., yes....

But it seems that you can. I'd be interested to know for sure if that was the only reason that he got banned. Rudeness, while unwanted, doesn't seem like a banning offence to me. Although I'd like it to be!

Personally, I'd just spread the word about him that he's like that. As well as making sure that people are aware that it's perfectly ok to turn people down for a dance. And then see how he likes it when no-one will dance with him.

Anyhow, tell your wife from all of us that it's not her problem, it's his.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

But it seems that you can. I'd be interested to know for sure if that was the only reason that he got banned. Rudeness, while unwanted, doesn't seem like a banning offence to me. Although I'd like it to be!

Consistent rudeness.
They'd had quite a few complaints, the last was when he was dancing with someone he asked "how long have you been dancing?", she replied, he came back with "Well I would have thought you'd have got the f******g hang of it by now" and ended the dance. As they were near her seat at the time, he said to her friend something along the lines of "no point asking you to dance, you're probably as bad as her".
I would've given him 2 lumps in his throat, personally, but they reported him and it seems it was the last straw.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Terpsichorea

I don't know whether it's something idiosyncratic about the Ceroc venue I go to, but a lot of the male leads seem to have a rather rude attitude towards Beginner/Early Intermediate dancers, in that they either can't be arsed to dance with them, or treat them dismissively when they deign to do so.

That's a horrible experience for your wife and just plain rude.

I'm wondering is this a symptom of the intermediate lead who isn't really all that good but thinks he is? When I was a beginner follow I only really danced at weekenders, I did end up dancing with a lot of experienced dancers (because I knew some people via this forum, and because a lot of forumites are more experienced dancers) and never encountered this attitude.

And with the more experienced leads, I've a few times encountered the 'you're not really good enough to dance with me' attitude - but its often from leads who dance very well but with a limited range of partners and maybe aren't actually as good at leading as they think they are, but blame any problems on the follower not being good enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say its not a reflection on the ability of the lead, but rather the attitude - still it would dent my confidence too if I wasn't in good form to start off with.

At our local venue some of the guys (not taxis) deliberately look around for new followers and make sure they get a dance. (Its another reason why I don't ask as much as I could, I know the new ladies would be too shy to ask, and I want the guys to be available to ask them.)