Ceroc style vs technique vs moves

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB
[*]Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)

I used to play a game years ago where I would watch someone and then from their style workout who their teacher was. People that had been doing viktor's classes were the easiest to pick.

Almost none of these people had been doing style classes. They just went along to regular move based classes. I guess I could never have played my game if people didn't automatically learn style from their teachers.

That said I think there is a huge lack of learning opportunities for style for women. Not like salsa where there are tons of female style classes.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
. . . That said I think there is a huge lack of learning opportunities for style for women. Not like salsa where there are tons of female style classes.

I did offer (on another thread) to teach a style class for ladies but I'm afraid it has proven rather difficult for me to arrange one as I have too much on my plate at the moment. I will offer to teach one at the next weekend events I am booked on, ie. Stompin' in Brighton, Rock Bottoms in Brighton (April), and possibly at Camber (April), but all that would depend on whether space is available for such a specialist workshop and also whether there is demand for it. Organisers have to bear in mind that such workshops would be for ladies only and that many ladies are not bothered about learning style. On the plus side, however, it would be an innovation - having a ladies' style class for modern jive - and also I am offering my services for free! (as I will already be teaching at those events)

LilyB

[Will]

Originally posted by LilyB
I have too much on my plate at the moment.
LilyB

Isn't that what David has been saying for months.

[Yogi_Bear]

Thanks to LilyB for suggesting a ladies' modern jive styling class at Camber. Maybe DavidB could hold one for men at the same time? Not that I would wish that to be at the expense of a WCS class, of cocurse!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

Ceroc style - Big leads, bouncy movement, always fully extended, ladies always overturning. It is not quite staccatto, but there is an emphasis on each beat.

So true everything you've said. So needs to be rectified too.
A lot of people only go to or do ceroc at ceroc and therefore can't know where they are going wrong because they have no basis for comparison. Its all they know.

Level heads, no bouncing, closer to each other, and no overturning past the frame position except for special occasions.

Frame. DaveB has a trick for fixing the frame problem called 'flashlighting'. You pretend you both have a flashlight on your chests, and you only do any leading when both of your flashlights are pointed directly at each other. I know it sounds like it should be out there with crystal gazing, phrenology and tea leaf reading. I can't even begin to point out why it shouldn't work. But when he told me and I tried it, the very next time I went dancing someone came up to me and commented how effectively I was using a frame and asked me how learned to dance like that!

Staccato motion. So true, and something you hear so rarely commented on. But how can you know, unless you've done some other types of dancing and can see what works better?

The problem is that ceroc teaches moves via positions not movement or motion. They teach moves by breaking down a move into 8 positions. And they stop at every count to show the position that people should be in. Students therefore stop at each count when dancing in order to mimic the teacher. And the teachers do it so often it becomes engrained into their dancing that they do it even when they are not teaching, they have to put in the pause on every count regardless of what the music is doing. This just the way the ceroc teaches, and thus the main influence on the UK jive/ceroc market.

The solution is for teachers to realise what they are doing and that there is a distinction between how to initially explain a move and how to dance a move. And to learn to do both and demonstrate both and demonste the distinction.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB
I have seen true advanced dancers in other styles. I don't think there is anyone I've seen doing Jive that can compare to these people, or even come close.

What annoys me is when people who do other styles start saying Modern Jive is not worth being considered, because no-one is at this standard. There is nothing about Modern Jive that prevents someone from getting to this level.

OK agreed on all that, and I hear the same criticisms of MJ. But why is modern jive never taken to that standard? Sure people do it for fun, but people do other types of dancing for fun too. Few people get into it the way they get into other types of dancing.

I know that other styles you get people who go dancing every night of the week but this is very rare in ceroc. Why? Is it because ceroc has few large big venues, spaced far apart, instead of lots of little ones everywhere, therefore preventing people from conveniently dancing every night of the week? Do the large classes mean people learn to slowly? Is it the fact freestyles finish 10:30/11 instead of 3am like many salsa clubs thus giving you a fifth the dance time per night? Or is it because of the way in which ceroc is taught? I can't believe that people who go to ceroc are inherently less talented than people who do other types of dancing, or is this true?

Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?

I wonder which if these factors real things, and which are red herrings. What are other people's experiences?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by LilyB
I did offer (on another thread) to teach a style class for ladies but I'm afraid it has proven rather difficult for me to arrange one as I have too much on my plate at the moment. I will offer to teach one at the next weekend events I am booked on, ie. Stompin' in Brighton, Rock Bottoms in Brighton (April), and possibly at Camber (April), but all that would depend on whether space is available for such a specialist workshop and also whether there is demand for it. ... LilyB

Pleeease do, Lily. I'll be the first one queuing up for it!
Rachel

[Sonic]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
OK agreed on all that, and I hear the same criticisms of MJ. But why is modern jive never taken to that standard? Sure people do it for fun, but people do other types of dancing for fun too. Few people get into it the way they get into other types of dancing.

I know that other styles you get people who go dancing every night of the week but this is very rare in ceroc. Why? Is it because ceroc has few large big venues, spaced far apart, instead of lots of little ones everywhere, therefore preventing people from conveniently dancing every night of the week? Do the large classes mean people learn to slowly? Is it the fact freestyles finish 10:30/11 instead of 3am like many salsa clubs thus giving you a fifth the dance time per night? Or is it because of the way in which ceroc is taught? I can't believe that people who go to ceroc are inherently less talented than people who do other types of dancing, or is this true?

Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?

I wonder which if these factors real things, and which are red herrings. What are other people's experiences?

My observations on this (based on a (limited) knowledge/experience of ballet and ballroom, I don't know about salsa):

1. The vast majority of MJers take up dancing far too late in life to be able to attain the standards achieved in other dance styles. My mother showed me a video of a ballroom dancing troupe from China and their dance technique was way beyond what most MJers will ever achieve. The scary thing was that they were about 12 years old!

2. MJ (in the UK) does not have set standards, syllabuses or exams. It is marketed to the masses as an easy all inclusive dance that anyone can do because all the difficult/tedious bits have been taken out. Other dance disciplines make no concessions to the masses: either you can do, say, a pirouette, or you can't. They take you through increasingly demanding exams until you realise your limits and drop out. Only the really talented progress.

So I think MJ doesn't have the same standard of dancer as ballet/ballroom because (1) it's a business where the most successful model appears to be targetting adults between late 20s and early 50s (rather than kids); and (2) its inclusivity means that bad dancers won't be weeded out, and good dancers aren't pushed.

Having said all this, I don't think it should be any other way, it's what makes MJ fun.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Sonic
I don't think it should be any other way, it's what makes MJ fun.

Hurrah, I am not alone.

Ballroom Jive and 10 step target stylists, the young, and the medal seekers. I'd bet that many, perhaps even most reading this forum would not know where they could learn Ballroom jive, or what 10 step is. Some of my dance heros at the Le Jive championships came to MJ from Ballroom Jive, and it showed in their quality. I know MJ'ers that have been ballet trained, and that shows too.

I am for keeping MJ as it is, and let them that wants more seek it elsewhere, and bring it back with them. Then we can enjoy dancing and enjoy watching, the best of both worlds.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?

I sometimes think that Modern Jive is a very Darwinian experience. Because only the hands are taught, not the feet or the body, there is a great deal of lattitude in style and technque between dancers. If I dance with 10 other equally competent ladies, I can be assured that I wil dance with one brialliantly, will just have one dance and run away with one, and have a range of enjoyable performances with the rest. It seems to me that my style will click with one and not with another. Does she bop up or down on the beat or does she wiggle side to side?

So I think that a guy and a gal could be both really advanced and yet not dance well with each other.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
Because only the hands are taught, not the feet or the body, there is a great deal of lattitude in style and technque between dancers.

Much of the time not even the hands are taught. And I find it more and more astounding as I discover how incredibly easy the basics are to teach.

As a taxi, I dance a lot with beginners, and have taken a few of the very simplest elements of lead/follow, shamelessly plagiarised from some of the people who do teach this sort of thing - far better and to a much higher level than I am capable or qualified - and distilled them into one track's worth of dancing/teaching.

Usually it is possible (70% or more of brand new beginners), easily within one track, although subsequent repetition obviously helps, to turn a spaghetti-armed (and hence confused and frustrated) beginner into an actual follower who starts to relax and enjoy.

Why doesn't Ceroc teach it?

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Why doesn't Ceroc teach it?

Ceroc do teach it, though not so much from the stage during the class as that kind of thing really benefit from direct contact (as you do in the Taxi class).
The Taxi-dancers revision class should be about developing simple skills, like basic lead / follow, turns and spins, postures and music / beat awareness... Maybe not consistently across the UK, but there nonetheless!

Over the last couple of years, I have added more and more leading / following and improvisation to my Beginners classes, and while it has improved the level of the dancers attending, it hasn't helped (hindered?) the retention rate...

The sort of stuff you mention really does require direct feedback. But congratulations on leading the way amongst taxi-dancers...
Ceroc HQ, with the help of teachers / franchisees are working on the format content of the revision classes and the role of taxi-dancers... There is so much to work on, your views / feedback and ideas would be most welcome!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
though not so much from the stage during the class

Mistake #1, IMHO.

A two minute exercise to establish resistance at the beginning of every class (and the intermediates) would subtract nothing from the teaching of the routine, but it would start to sow seeds.

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
A two minute exercise to establish resistance at the beginning of every class (and the intermediates) would subtract nothing from the teaching of the routine, but it would start to sow seeds.

Well you hadn't specified anything in particular, but taking your example, I disagree, you can spend 2 minutes doing a bit of resistance work (this is already being done as part of the new pre class warm-up exercises at most Ceroc classes) and it might help a few, but most Beginners will do it wrong and not realise they are, at least until they are taken aside individually later on, by a teacher or taxi-dancer.
I have taught many workshops and even with the limited numbers, and using many different techniques / exercizes and games, you still need to go through it with every Beginner individually for them to get it...
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because I agree it is desirable, and as I said, currently being introduced nationally, but much harder than you're making out!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
Well you hadn't specified anything in particular, but taking your example, I disagree

I didn't say it would be a miracle, I said it would sow seeds. Most people don't go to workshops, or at least very infrequently, and I haven't seen any of these pre-class warm ups anywhere in Ceroc - they sound an excellent idea, maybe Scotland is way ahead of us southerners?

I like your sig, BTW

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I like your sig, BTW

oohhh cutting

I reckon we agree on the principles, though our experiences differ.
Scotland is not at the cutting edge on that one, we're yet to offer warm-up sessions before the class, though it is coming.

I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with me that the best place for teaching leading / following and tension etc... is during the revision class with the Taxi-dancers? Sowing the seed is all very well, but we need the care and attention of a gardener to make it grow!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with me that the best place for teaching leading / following and tension etc... is during the revision class with the Taxi-dancers? Sowing the seed is all very well, but we need the care and attention of a gardener to make it grow!

We certainly don't disagree about this.

One to one is even better, of course. I don't think it can be done in three minutes in any kind of class.

Chris

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Franck

Scotland is not at the cutting edge on that one, we're yet to offer warm-up sessions before the class, though it is coming.

Have I said yet that NZ's been doing that for 10 years....
Trying to not hit the submit button, trying, trying, trying....

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck
Scotland is not at the cutting edge

Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it?

J

PS Franck, this isn't a personal attack, I just have a "F*** it and give it a go" attitude at the moment (with notable exceptions of course! )

[Chris]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Have I said yet that ....

Yeah, you're braver than me