Ceroc style vs technique vs moves

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne
Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it?

Absolutely, not waiting on anyone in particular, but so many new things have been introduced recently, and so much more to do yet so little time...

The warm-up class is something I needed convinced over... I'm yet to be totally sold on it.
I have however heard many good and positive things about it, so I'm willing to introduce it in Scotland. I'l probably start with my own classes before selling it to all the other teachers.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class!

[Lory]

Originally posted by JamesGeary

A lot of people only go to or do ceroc at ceroc and therefore can't know where they are going wrong because they have no basis for comparison. Its all they know.

Level heads, no bouncing, closer to each other, and no overturning past the frame position except for special occasions.

I don't know where to start......

I really haven't got a clue what style I've got, if its good, bad or plain ugly (I daren't take a video, I may never dance again)
one thing I do know for sure is, I definitely change with different partners and different types of music,

Last night for example, I danced for the first time, with a guy who was primarily Lindy, I ended up bouncing all over the place, we were skipping round and doing strange bobbing up and down weight changes from one foot to the other (I'd like to see how anyone could do anything else, other than follow 'his style')

then sometimes I'll dance with someone to a Latin style track, they may have a very smooth style, with a very level head and I'll try to mimic what he's doing

The trouble is, no one ever criticises, either positively or negatively. I'd appreciate a little

Maybe if I had a regular partner it would be different?


I find the better lead I have (someone I feel in tune with) the easier it is to play with my style, If I have to concentrate to much on the lead (trying to interpret what moves they are wanting to achieve and not wanting to let them down) I loose the ability to put much style in! And that's not much fun!

On the other hand, I've danced with some men that are 'such weak leads' that I have a ball, I just do what ever I like, mostly they run a mile after and never ask me again but some must apparently like it, as they keep coming back for more!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jayne
Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it?

Confucious he say judge method by its results.

Ceroc Scotland: 18 months ago, loads of enthusiasm, very few advanced dancers. Now - loads of enthusiasm, dozen or so advanced dancers, LOADS of good intermediates. Think whatever Ceroc, Boogie Nights etc have done a superb job. I WISH our efforts in the North West had been as succesfull!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class!

Well Amir does them at Hipsters. Standard sort of gentle coordination and stretching stuff to a clubby type track.

He finishes with a spinning exercise...

- step back left, forward left, spin on left, finish feet together and step back left.
- step back right, forward right, spin on right, finish feet together and step back right.

I've found them so useful that I've continued to practise them at home, most days for a couple of minutes.

Still find spinning very difficult (well, more than one, anyway), but I get less dizzy and sometimes I don't fall over. I think they're excellent exercises - for guys as well as gals.

Chris

[Jayne]

I also try to copy my partner's style and in my head I achieve it (what it actually looks like, I've no idea!!). My exception is bouncing. I don't *do* bouncing.

As for a weak lead - I'm afraid I'm the other end of the spectrum to you. If he doesn't lead I don't do anything - the exception here being if he is an absolute beginner (or begginer for many people on this forum ).

James - overturning is a bad thing. Explain? I'm kinda focussing on this following stuff at the moment so I'm genuinely interested.

J

[Lory]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Still find spinning very difficult

NO WAY! Who was that man I was dancing with last night who looked remarkably like you, even answered to the name of Chris!

[Lory]

Originally posted by Jayne
My exception is bouncing. I don't *do* bouncing.

He has his arm FIRMLY round my waist and was forceably hitching me up and down....

I honestly didn't have a choice!

Oh dear, I'm making him sound like an ogre but he was quite good fun really!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lory
NO WAY! Who was that man I was dancing with last night who looked remarkably like you, even answered to the name of Chris!

I said I found it very difficult, not that I couldn't do it

I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie

Chris

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Lory
but some must apparently like it, as they keep coming back for more!

Must be me

C U L8R

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie

Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident

I think the main reason it's taken me so long is that it's almost unpractisable without a regular and patient partner.

Done badly, (he says, speaking from experience) it's one of the most embarrassing (non-aerial) moves possible. It needs the guy to be 100% committed to doing it, he can't turn it into anything else if it goes wrong, and if he loses his balance, there's a good chance of either giving the girl's arm a yank, which, as you know, I'm dead against, or falling over, which looks uncool, which I'm also dead against

So I've tended to fight shy of it.

Nigel simplified it a lot for me by teaching the lady's return part of it as preceding the guy's archie by just a moment. This allowed me to start practising it and not fall over, which led to the beginning of being able to do what I'd describe as the Viktor timing (if not the Viktor style). At least I can practise it as much as I like now...

Chris

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by ChrisA

I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie

Chris

now THAT sounds an interesting move

[spindr]

Originally posted by Franck
Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident

Hmmm, my favourite is what I call a "Spanish inquisition" -- lead a return and keep the lead going into a smooth non-change of places reverse Archie spin -- can be swapped for *any* left-to-right handed return. And of course no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Perfect, for when your partner's lost concentration and is staring into the distance admiring a pair of jeans -- or their contents

SpinDr.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Well Amir does them at Hipsters. Standard sort of gentle coordination and stretching stuff to a clubby type track.

He finishes with a spinning exercise...

- step back left, forward left, spin on left, finish feet together and step back left.
- step back right, forward right, spin on right, finish feet together and step back right.

This is one of the NZ warm ups.

You could say all ceroc/mj moves are either guy turns, girl turns or both turn, with varying handholds in between. Thats pretty much it. So thats the main thing you want to get right.

So you get taught how to turn either direction and step back, which is the basic action in all the moves really. It is part of the warm up so becomes a habit for people and sorts out their foot work, as a habit, and they don't have to think about it during the class.

[Emma]

Originally posted by spindr
Perfect, for when your partner's lost concentration and is staring into the distance admiring a pair of jeans -- or their contents

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jayne

James - overturning is a bad thing. Explain? I'm kinda focussing on this following stuff at the moment so I'm genuinely interested.

Sure. Its style, so people will argue about it until kingdom come. And it comes down to preference.

Every other partner dance style I can think of, latin ballroom, salsa, west coast swing, lambada all consistently look much better than ceroc/mj when done by someone fairly skilled. I also notice that they all return to a facing each other square on position much more regularly.

Why do all of the 'professional' dance styles return to a square on position. I don't know. But, if you turn a girl and she winds her self up like a spring then the only thing she can do is unwind, the leader can't choose between an unwind and a forward together or backwards away from each other or travel together motion one way or the other. That might be part of it, you go from 5 options to 1 option. Which means less control and choice for the leader.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Franck
The warm-up class is something I needed convinced over... I'm yet to be totally sold on it.
...
I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class!

I've done heaps. And in NZ surveys found that people who did warms ups before class almost all wanted to continue with warm ups before class.

Think about anytime you go dancing. You're uncoordinated and cold for the first few dances and then you get into the groove and enjoy yourself.

Having a warm up means you get over the cold uncordinated thing before you start the dancing. By the time you get to dancing with someone at the start of the class you feel more natural and less self-conscious, and hopefully more relaxed. If the warmup also improves your technique and flexibility then thats just an additional bonus

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Think about anytime you go dancing. You're uncoordinated and cold for the first few dances and then you get into the groove and enjoy yourself.

Having a warm up means you get over the cold uncordinated thing before you start the dancing. By the time you get to dancing with someone at the start of the class you feel more natural and less self-conscious, and hopefully more relaxed. If the warmup also improves your technique and flexibility then thats just an additional bonus

I'm not sold on warm-ups either. If they are just used as warm-ups.

What (I think) happens with warm-ups. Is that you do them. And get nice and warm. And then stand watching the stage mostly, with very little movement, and just get cold. Certainly at the start of the beginner class, when the teacher has to explain all the neccessaries (grip, step back, men leading etc.). I think that probably is worse than not warming up in the first place (cold, then warm, then cold, then warm etc).

However, I'm for the warm-up, if it includes things like spinning techniques, lead/follow exercises, frame and posture tips, weight changing/balance exercises......that sort of thing.

Steve

[Jayne]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
<snip>

OK I'll have a go at not overturning tonight and see if it makes any difference (although I've been doing it for so long now I don't know how good I'll be at "undoing" it)

Thanks James!

J

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
OK I'll have a go at not overturning tonight and see if it makes any difference (although I've been doing it for so long now I don't know how good I'll be at "undoing" it)

I can assure you there's very little, if even anything, to undo.

Chris