Ceroc style vs technique vs moves

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
Yes, that's true. I should re-state my position, I think. It's not that you can't teach style, it's that certain dancers are able to learn style points, and clearly they can be instructed on things to watch out for. Thinking about the issue, whenever I have learned anything, I have noticed there are people who don't grasp the concepts very well, whether it's history or a foreign language or probability or rugby or, on topic, dancing.

I've been reading this thread with interest. Can you teach (or indeed learn) style? I think you can, but several things get in the way with style in dance - and I suppose this really applies to any sort of improvement, not just style. The first is that many people, I've noticed, don't have much idea of what a particular bit of their body is doing. I teach fiddle, and in the beginning stages it's very much the same, they have to be taught very carefully to notice what their hands are doing, what position they're in, otherwise they haven't a clue. So that's point number one, which involves building pathways of awareness to feet, legs, torso, arms, hands, head, so that you actually know what these bits of your body are up to at any given moment.

The second major point is that people can't see themselves, therefore they don't know that they're bent double, their arms are above their shoulders much of the time, they bounce up and down like a yo-yo or flap their hands like a baby bird, or whatever it is that is the 'sore point' at the time. I would dearly love to video myself dancing (or just get someone to watch carefully!) in order to knock some of these points on the head because I haven't a clue what they are and I really want to know. I suspect others would find this fascinating and useful too, in fact I have thought of offering my services to film people dancing freestyle for just this purpose, and may yet do just that (I feel another thread coming on).

The third point is that you never get feedback from experienced dancers. I make a point of asking for it, with very limited success (except you Trampy, thanks honey - you're fab) because I want to know whether I'm heavy to lead, or throw too much (any!) weight when I'm stepping back, and I hate it when I **** up a move because I've never seen it before. I have asked some men to 'be gentle' with me when they're leading and it has made a big difference - for me and, I hope, for the other women they dance with. It's not nice to leave a dance with your shoulders aching!

So is a culture of respectful feedback, freely given, possible within Ceroc? I'd love to think so!

Jane

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
So to say 'you can't teach some people to be stylish' is a truism, whatever the subject there are people who can't benefit from the teacher's skills.

But, are those people who don't get it actually willing/interested in learning what is being taught? I would doubt it - those who are would seek the right questions to get the answers that made sense to them.
I agree that if it's shown without implicitly being mentioned, then the style points will only be absorbed by those who are eager and aware enough to take note.

So, in conclusion - you're right, I'm less right.

I wouldn't count on it; churning out a fixed/uniform style is just as bad as not teaching it IMHO: Style is individual and I think that only those who explore their own style rather than emulating one specific dancer/teacher's style are the dancers who become stylish.

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
The first is that many people, I've noticed, don't have much idea of what a particular bit of their body is doing.

Agree 110%: Getting your body to fit into the mould that your mind creates is the hardest thing I find. I also think that this is why some prior martial arts training helps with dancing.

The second major point is that people can't see themselves,

But many people don't want to see themselves. I agree that it is a valid tool for self improvement, but most people go to a freestyle night to dance, have fun and enjoy themselves... not to learn. A lot of people go to the classes for the same reason. Learning is just a sort of bonus "side-effect" to a fun, social night out.

The third point is that you never get feedback from experienced dancers.

You do if you ask. But as I have said before, the only feedback you should respect is that from people who's dancing you respect. Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years, or would you simply think them too big for their boots? If you were a novice and a really experianced dancer started picking holes in your dancing, would you simply walk off dejected; never to return? If you want feedback, I think that you should ask or be asked: I think that there are too many miss-judged conclusions that could be drawn from just volenteering "advice".
As a second down side - how do you know the advice given is correct? One person could say "do this", another "do that"; which is right? And the one who's advice you don't take; do you tell them that they are wrong? What if the one who's advice wasn't right for you was one of the best dancers? Do you continue to try what they were advising against what you have found to work?
Personally, I think that Teachers, Taxis and regular partners are the only people that you should take advice from. And even then, be selective about what to spply to your dancing.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gadget
Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years

Of course!
Of they're new to Ceroc/MJ I probably don't know their background.
They may be a fantastic teacher of a different style of dance/movement.
As with any advice, I can take it or leave it, but I wouldn't dismiss it just because it came from someone who appears to be a novice.

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
I've been reading this thread with interest. Can you teach (or indeed learn) style?

Have just caught up with this thread and enjoyed it (great displacement activity for a Monday morning)

Own personal opinion, I don't think style (in the "individuality in dance" sense we are discussing) can be taught if the definition of teaching is giving someone knowledge and ability that they didn't have before. A skill can be taught.

I think it can be coached. I define coaching as encouragement and advice to bring to the surface a talent (rather than a skill) that has to be there somewhere in the first place. In some people it is just further under the surface than others and so takes a little more time and coaching to come up.

Coaching can take many forms, from a blatant - "do this" - to see if the person does it naturally (specific fourish with the left hand for exapmle) to a throw away comment from a peer like" I like the way you point your toes" making the person realise they point their toes and do it more often.

Style to my mind is individuality. Something that means I can identify people at a glance by the way they move. The individuality element is what to me makes it a talent rather than a skill.

Franck and Lorna in particular make a point in workshops especially but also in classes of encouraging us all (after ensuring the basics are in place ) to do a move with "attitude", IMHO this is a great word to use, it doesn't imply a particular style but more a "find your own feeling" notion. I also think it's a great way (particularly in Scotland where men are men and toe pointing's for girls eh) to suggest style without overtones of femininity, which some would deliberately eschew.

Michael, I sincerely hope you found a little of the inspiration that was possibly missing in your dance life when in Blackpool, there was certainly plenty of TALENT to be seen, and I'm sure I caught you smiling a couple of times!!

Barry and Lory, I wonder if I too would have picked the same couple, superb excecution but just something missing, for my taste - might feel a PM coming on to check!!

C

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by Gadget
But, are those people who don't get it actually willing/interested in learning what is being taught?
...I agree that it is a valid tool for self improvement, but most people go to a freestyle night to dance, have fun and enjoy themselves... not to learn. A lot of people go to the classes for the same reason. Learning is just a sort of bonus "side-effect" to a fun, social night out.

I agree, certainly, that people go to freestyles and even classes to have fun and enjoy themselves. That's what I go for. But I would challenge the notion that this means they don't want to learn or improve. It's a fairly well accepted fact that the better you are at something, the more you enjoy doing it, especially if it is a 'team' or partner sport like MJ. I think if you asked absolutely anyone at any dance if they would like to be better at it, not one of them would say 'no'. There are lots of things - attitudes, beliefs - that get in the way of adults learning, most of it drummed into us as kids...

the only feedback you should respect is that from people who's dancing you respect. Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years, or would you simply think them too big for their boots? If you were a novice and a really experianced dancer started picking holes in your dancing, would you simply walk off dejected; never to return? If you want feedback, I think that you should ask or be asked: I think that there are too many miss-judged conclusions that could be drawn from just volenteering "advice".
As a second down side - how do you know the advice given is correct? One person could say "do this", another "do that"; which is right? And the one who's advice you don't take; do you tell them that they are wrong? What if the one who's advice wasn't right for you was one of the best dancers? Do you continue to try what they were advising against what you have found to work?
Personally, I think that Teachers, Taxis and regular partners are the only people that you should take advice from. And even then, be selective about what to spply to your dancing.

yes, I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. But we're all adults, we can be selective about trying things out, seeing if they suit us and taking on board what does, rejecting what doesn't (or even saying, I don't get that or it doesn't seem to work for me, can you explain further?) I don't think my fantasy was self-proclaimed experts merrily dishing out advice to everyone they dance with....?

And picking holes... that's the point about respectful feedback, it's all in the way you say it, only giving it when asked, and not making whoever it is feel criticised, but supported. I think what I really was getting at (and thanks for focussing me, Gadget! Have I met you? ) is that if some bloke is yanking me around the floor like crazy I've just gotta tell him, it's only fair to him (cos otherwise he won't get to dance with me again! ) but otherwise, I'll ask whoever I admire and you know who you are guys to tell me when I mess up because I'd rather know...
xx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
But I would challenge the notion that this means they don't want to learn or improve.

But there is a (large) difference between activly seeking knowledge and just learning because you are there. I use the classes - both beginner and intermediate to learn. I use the freestyle to dance. I'm not saying that ner the two shall meet, but my primary objective in freestyle is not to try new things or learn how to do a speciffic move - it's to dance and have fun. If I learn allong the way; so be it.
If there is something I want to learn about, or practice, then I will seek out someone that I respect as a dancer (/teacher), and ask them to comment. If I asked everyone I dance with and worried that much about my dancing, then I would not enjoy it half as much as I do.

I don't think my fantasy was self-proclaimed experts merrily dishing out advice to everyone they dance with....?
~snip~ if some bloke is yanking me around the floor like crazy I've just gotta tell him.

I was just exadurating to make a point - I think that your 'fantasy' is actually a reality: good dancers and teachers are very helpfull and will pass on advice. You just have to ask them
Giving advice: yes - if your partner is dancing in such a way to cause you harm or discomfort, then I agree; he(/she) should know and I would have no reservations about telling someone.
{Personally, any small matters of discomfort like gripping hands or anticipating, I tend to change my dancing to make it a lot harder for my partner to actually do - people tend to follow the path of least resistance }

(and thanks for focussing me, Gadget! Have I met you? )

Probably; I'm Gadget

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Lory

Last night for example, I danced for the first time, with a guy who was primarily Lindy, I ended up bouncing all over the place, we were skipping round and doing strange bobbing up and down weight changes from one foot to the other

Sounds like the Lindy eight beat bounce. I saw a Ceroc taxi at my local JazzJive class, and she said something similar about "that weird bouncy thing" everyone did. Well done for following it.
Sometimes you get a pairing where one partner has a definite "Lindy style", so they are doing a (light) eight beat bounce, and the other partner has a definite "Ceroc style", so they are doing a (light) four beat bouce. The clash of styles makes for an interesting dance.

Originally Posted by DavidB

If you played a 'club' track, then a latin track, then a swing track, you would be pushed to tell any difference in the way people dance.

Do you think you get more of a difference over more than one track? For example, would you see more difference in dancing style if you compared dancers at a night with almost all swing music, compared to the same dancers at a night with almost all club music?

[Ghost]

THREAD RESSURECTION

I was discussing different dances with someone last night and remarked that what I particularly like about Ceroc is the flexibility to adapt it to fit so many different styles of dancer and music.

Given that it's been 4 years, have Franck, Gadget, the Tramp et al changed their minds? What does everyone else think?

Originally Posted by DavidB

It has been interesting reading some of these comments. A few random thoughts:

• What do you mean by style?
• Can you learn style if you ignore technique?
• Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)
• The emphasis in Modern Jive is almost exclusively on doing moves. Contrast this to the emphasis in Ballroom dancing, where the emphasis is on technique, and Lindy (I'm told) & West Coast Swing, where it is on musical interpretation. So can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look?
• I always think that Modern Jive feels better than it looks. I'm still trying to work out why.
• Are there any Modern Jive couples you would stop dancing so you could watch?

David
PS I didn't go to Victor & Lydia's workshop - it was a bit far... I have seen them dance, and like their style - even if I could never dance like that. I'm not criticising their workshop - I'm more interested in what people think about style, and were expecting from the workshop.