tippy toes!

[Lou]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Here's one of the best WCS clips I've seen (in terms of being able to see what's going on) - it's the 2nd place couple from the US Open in 2001 (Kyle/Sarah). It don't look nothin' like Lindy...

OMG. That's fantastic.

Those hips....

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Great clip, one wee question, they obviously know this piece of music inside out, was this a choreographed "show case" sytle comp rather than a really jammy freestlye?

It's choreographed. WCS has two choreographed categories - from vague memories:

Showcase: Up to 5 lifts allowed, 3 required, at least one over waist height.
Classic: No lifts, but dips, drops and slides are allowed.

Sarah and Kyle came 2nd in the classic section. I thought the winning routine was better - probably my favourite dancing clip ever - but I only have a poor quality version of the clip and no link for it.

Dave

[Sheepman]

It seems to me that the way Lindy is taught now is much more upright than it used to be. When I was taught it 16 years ago, we would all be bent low, with bums out, rising up on the spins, but inevitably it is more difficult to balance in the spins. I blame this teaching (probably unfairly) for a fair number of problems with my MJ.

I haven't seen the West Coast clip yet, but I'm looking forward to it in about an hour, when it finishes downloading on my dial up!

I think you need to be careful talking about BENT knees for spinning, as some will get the wrong idea, surely better to talk about flexing - ie not quite straight and locked, it is surely more natural than the ballet style?

But Rachel, I can't say that being on Tippy Toes is something I've been aware of when dancing with you, or affecting what I would lead, I think this would have less impact than eg not having a good frame, on what the man leads. I'll try to be more aware next time!

Originally posted by Rachel
One thing I've noticed some beginner ladies doing is trying to spin by twisting first from their shoulders, which doesn't seem to do them any favours.

If I do an intermediate class, I would say that the main problem that ladies who don't get it are having, is their spinning, as the ladies are expected to do this from day 1 as a beginner, shouldn't more attention be paid to the technique?

Greg

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Rachel
Gadget - save me a dance when I manage make it back to Scotland, would you? And, if you wouldn't mind, it would be interesting to hear any hints/tips you could give me. Some people can do fantastic spins on a bent knee (as is often taught) but I can't for the life of me spin unless I'm 'locked' into a straight position.

oooh If guys like The Tramp, Graham, et all hold you in high esteme, then I would be honoured to accompany you on the dance floor; I have a funny feeling that I will have to fight off others for the privalidge.

I don't know that I agree with Franck on developing muscles; I used to fence quite a bit and have strong legs using the same muscles that spinning uses. It is not the developing of the muscles themselves, but how to use them that comes with practice.
I think that all bending the knees does is encourages you to move to the ball of the foot and so makes spinning (and rotating) easier. If you can already do that, then you are a step ahead of everyone else. Bending the knees also leads to the hips being more involved in the dance - while ladies seem to do this naturally, men have to work at it.

Beginners twisting from their shoulders - it's understandable; with no "footwork" as such, the most basic way to spin is to throw your body into a spin and let your feet do their job to keep you upright.

Straight torso - I agree that as a 'base', a straight torso looks better and if you keep it fairly upright, then it makes those occasions when a you follow a form look more dramatic. {as long as you don't start looking like Lord-Of-The-Dance.}

[Franck]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I think you need to be careful talking about BENT knees for spinning, as some will get the wrong idea, surely better to talk about flexing - ie not quite straight and locked, it is surely more natural than the ballet style?

Yes I agree, bending can be misleading and I like 'flexing' Either way, a locked knee, makes for an odd spin, and can be fairly damaging if your shoes have any grip at all...

Originally posted by Gadget
I don't know that I agree with Franck on developing muscles; I used to fence quite a bit and have strong legs using the same muscles that spinning uses. It is not the developing of the muscles themselves, but how to use them that comes with practice.
I think that all bending the knees does is encourages you to move to the ball of the foot and so makes spinning (and rotating) easier.

I wasn't talking about having strong legs, but instead to develop the muscles that you need to remain balanced on the ball of one foot for any length of time.
Another way to 'cheat' is to spin faster as the momentum will help to keep you upright, again, this is a false economy, and often is counter-productive as the attempt to inject more momentum is often responsible for going off balance.

There are many aspects in achieving good spinning, legs and feet are part of it, but spotting, position of your arms also play a big part.

Franck.

P.S. I can't wait to have another dance or 4 with you Rachel

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Here's one of the best WCS clips I've seen (in terms of being able to see what's going on) - it's the 2nd place couple from the US Open in 2001 (Kyle/Sarah). It don't look nothin' like Lindy...
www.dynamicpoetry.com/kyle and sarah.wmv

An impressive clip, but IMHO not as good as Robert Cordoba and Deborah doing West Coast Swing at Rebel Yell last year, and that was freestyle!!!
Greg

[DavidB]

Kyle & Sara

It is a choreographed routine. However their freestyle (whether in competition or socially) is just as good. There are half a dozen couples at the same level (including Robert & Deborah), and it always looks better in real life

As David Franklin says, they have 2 different choreographed routines in WCS competitions. You are only allowed to enter one. They also have 2 different freestyle competitions - 'Strictly Swing', and 'Jack And Jill'. The Jack And Jill is just like Dance With A Stranger, but they have a separate division for the best dancers. The Strictly Swing is like our freestyle competitions with one difference - you can't enter it with the same partner that you did one of the choreographed divisions with.

These Freestyle divisions are amongst the highlights of their competitions. They dance one couple at a time, so neither the judges nor the audience miss anything. The dancers don't have to throw in every move they can think of - they have time to interpret the music and know the judges will see it. (Sounds a lot like the Jive Masters...) You will never be considered a good WCS dancer if you just do routines - they consider freestyle to be equally as important.

Kyle is the best leader I have ever met. (Wendy - you can thank him for the 'Ipod Lead'). I've never been lucky enough to dance with Sara. One day we will get them to fly over to the UK...

Spinning

What you do in the middle of a spin is secondary to how you get into the spin. That is where most people have problems, whether it is their own technique, or their partner not giving them chance.

But the middle of the spin is still important, especially for multiple spins.

Ballet teaches spinning by raising everything 'up' - ie toned upper body, straight hips & knees, feet extended or on pointe. If you can do it, it is the fastest and most energy-efficient way of spinning. Ballet dancers are the best multiple spinners I've seen. But if you slightly lose balance, then anything you do by way of adjustment slows down your spin.

Many swing dances teach spinning 'grounded'. The upper body is still toned, but relaxed. The hips are still straight, but the knees are slightly bent. You still spin on the ball of your foot, but the heel is only lifted slightly. You can't spin as fast, but you can adjust your balance using your knees and still keep the spin going.

For anyone who isn't dance trained, the biggest problem with spinning is the balance. So I'd always suggest anything that helps the balance, and would recommend trying with bent knees. If it doesn't work, then try straightening the knees.

There is also the question of what look do you want. A ballet type spin gives a noticable body rise and fall as you go into a spin, and come out of it. This might not be the look you want. A swing style spin keeps everything at the same height, and might not draw attention to the spin as much. But whatever look you are after, remember that a spin done well one way always looks better than a spin done badly the other way.

For anyone who is happy spinning one way, I'd suggest trying the other way to give you some variation in the look of your dancing.

David

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Franck
P.S. I can't wait to have another dance or 4 with you Rachel

Some great thoughts been posted on this thread - thanks, everyone.

We're seriously trying to find ways to manage a flying visit up to Perth on 16th at the moment. Don't yet know if it's possible, but
very much looking forward to collecting on these dances!!

PS Gadget - they don't really hold me in such esteem - they're just winding me up... Hope to see you soon! (Oh yes - I did a v basic fencing class once a few years ago as part of a martial arts weekend. Something I'd wanted to try since I was really young. My God! All those lunges - it near on killed me - I couldn't walk for days afterwards!)
Rachel

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
For anyone who is happy spinning one way, I'd suggest trying the other way to give you some variation in the look of your dancing.

David

Wow - how did I miss this post? Thanks David ... The above is exactly why I sooo want to do your spins workshop.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Rachel
PS Gadget - they don't really hold me in such esteem - they're just winding me up... Hope to see you soon! (Oh yes - I did a v basic fencing class once a few years ago as part of a martial arts weekend. Something I'd wanted to try since I was really young. My God! All those lunges - it near on killed me - I couldn't walk for days afterwards!)

just try going into a half-lunge and stepping accross a squash court again and again and again; lower, faster, starting, stopping, backwards, forwards, lunging.... I don't think anyone enjoyed footwork drills, but since you fence on the balls of your feet (or are meant to) it does develop ankle/calf muscles and endurance.

I look forward to dancing with you - {erm... :sorry: someone please point her out to me so I know who I'm dancing with }