The pulse of the music ?

[Caro]

A question that has been bothering me for a while. I've read a few times (ok, mainly on wcs related sites) about how important it is for dancers to feel the pulse of the music and express it in their musical interpretation.

I am not sure I understand what is meant exactly by pulse... and then how it can be used in dancing.

I'm assuming it has to be a bit more than just the beat, right ? Something to do with the feel of the music may be ?

Is this a musicians' term ?

Not sure if that should be here or in the DJ's booth, as I am interested both in understanding what it is in the music, but also obviously how to apply it when dancing.

Anybody care to enlighten me ?

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Caro

A question that has been bothering me for a while. I've read a few times (ok, mainly on wcs related sites) about how important it is for dancers to feel the pulse of the music and express it in their musical interpretation.

I am not sure I understand what is meant exactly by pulse... and then how it can be used in dancing.

I'm assuming it has to be a bit more than just the beat, right ? Something to do with the feel of the music may be ?

Is this a musicians' term ?

Not sure if that should be here or in the DJ's booth, as I am interested both in understanding what it is in the music, but also obviously how to apply it when dancing.

Anybody care to enlighten me ?

The definitive WCS definition would seem to be (from Skippy Blair's Dance Dictionary)

PULSING -

(1) A Rhythmic contraction in the body that feels like you are the heart beat of the dance. (2) A regularly recurring accent. (3) To accent all of the Upbeats or accent all of the Downbeats in a specific dance. (4) Swing dances PULSE the Upbeat. Cha-Cha breaks on "2" & “6” - but PULSES the Downbeat.

which tallies with my personal understanding. So here (at least from the examples), the "pulse" is a slower rhythm than the main beat.

On t'other hand, I have seen other people define "pulse" as subdivisions of the main beat (i.e. faster rhythm). And at least one article from Skippy Blair which sounds like it is talking about the pulse as subdivisions as well.

[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]

[Caro]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]

well that's exactly where I am as well. I have read that definition (several times ) but still don't think I understand the concept of 'pulsing'.

Is that something you need to see in action to understand ?

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Caro

well that's exactly where I am as well. I have read that definition (several times ) but still don't think I understand the concept of 'pulsing'.

To my very limited understanding, it's basically thinking of the count (in WCS) as "one TWO, three and FOUR, five and SIX" (or "one TWO, three and FOUR, five SIX, seven and EIGHT"). So you are trying to put a little more emphasis (sharpness) on your movement on the upbeats compared to the down beats. Somewhat based on my one Skippy class (on critical timing), I tend to think of it as making certain you are precisely on the beat for the upbeats, while being more able to "go with the flow" for the downbeats.

For MJ, I think it's pretty automatic to pulse on "ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN eight". (I'm tempted to say the problem with MJ is that it is all pulse and no inbetween movements).

Is that something you need to see in action to understand ?

I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats. But the fact I had to search through several clips to find something vaguely convincing (and that I can find others where all the highlights seem to fall on the odd counts, at least to my eyes) shows that it's a lot more subtle than Skippy might imply.

I admit I'm glad to see it's not just me who finds Skippy's definitions etc. confusing!

[straycat]

I'd be intrigued to know just what he means as well. I think I know, but am hard-pressed to articulate it.

Something to throw into the mix. Some tracks (eg - the rather sultry and gorgeous Blues Nocturne) have a heartbeat-style double-pulse throughout, and that's what I'd endeavour to treat as 'the pulse' of a track like that. Is this what Skippy means? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by straycat264

I'd be intrigued to know just what he means as well.

For info, Skippy Blair is a she. (And 80-something years old).

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]

And here was me wondering if I was the only one.....

NZ Monkey breathes a sigh of relief

[straycat]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

For info, Skippy Blair is a she. (And 80-something years old).

where's my proofreading team when I need 'em?

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

....If you look at this routine by J/T...

Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?

Originally Posted by David Franklin

... I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats. But the fact I had to search through several clips to find something vaguely convincing (and that I can find others where all the highlights seem to fall on the odd counts, at least to my eyes) shows that it's a lot more subtle than Skippy might imply...

It will probably get me burnt at the stake but on this last section I felt very disconnected between what the music was saying to me and the choreography, a mismatch between the mood and the movement.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?

I'm pretty sure Sheepman plays it, so he should know.

It will probably get me burnt at the stake but on this last section I felt very disconnected between what the music was saying to me and the choreography, a mismatch between the mood and the movement.

I wouldn't put it that strongly, but I don't entirely disagree. Reading between the lines of a few comments at the time, I think there was actually a feeling that the choreography for this was "overperformed". J/T are projecting out to the audience very strongly with a piece of music that doesn't really suit it. (I think it's the only routine they've done at the US Open and not won).

[Caro]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats.

well I watched it... and watched it... but to be honest I think I fail to see it... If anything I would have said that I could sort of see something that may be was pulsing, but at the very beginning of the routine.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

For MJ, I think it's pretty automatic to pulse on "ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN eight". (I'm tempted to say the problem with MJ is that it is all pulse and no inbetween movements).

However that comment kinda made a lot of sense, and I think made me understand better what it is... (although I think we'd agree it doesn't look good in that example, and is probably the premise of... bouncing)

Originally Posted by David Franklin

.... I think there was actually a feeling that the choreography for this was "overperformed". J/T are projecting out to the audience very strongly with a piece of music that doesn't really suit it.

After watching that vid, it made me realise how their routines have evolved and are a lot less 'in your face' now... Tatiana now constantly hammers that 'less is more' when she teaches fancy syncopations and variations...

[Chef]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?

It sounds like Cleos Mood by Junior Walker.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Chef

It sounds like Cleos Mood by Junior Walker.

I'm sure you're right - it was on the tip of my tongue!

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Caro

well I watched it... and watched it... but to be honest I think I fail to see it... If anything I would have said that I could sort of see something that may be was pulsing, but at the very beginning of the routine.

In the first bit I see a fair bit of emphasis on the downbeat too, and that always throws me off. I think I struggle with this because to a MJ dancer it is so natural to look for emphasis on the downbeat.

But I'm certainly not going to argue the point. I really don't see it as this "uber-important" concept that makes/breaks a performance for me. Given the multiple comments on here, I'm not alone. To be honest, although it may be my ignorance speaking, I do feel there's an element of "emperor's new clothes" about a lot of this.

[CJ]

Q:

could this not be an inernal, as opposed to exernal, thing. I don't WCS, but I do dance to the music. Often, I can be leading to various instruments, and feel my partner with me: but how often does this look any different to standard on the beat MJ?

The difference is in how it feels, not always how it looks.

Then again, it might just be Emperor's new clothes...

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by CJ

The difference is in how it feels, not always how it looks.

Not according to Skippy.

Originally Posted by Skippy Blair

I ask people to point out their favorite HUSTLE dancer. I get different responses, but those selected are always the ones where you can PULSE the dance to the music.

Watch your favorite Hustle dancer. I can think of several that are a delight to watch. Maria Torres - Deborah Hampton - Lori Bradshaw - Martin Parker. Don't try to figure out what they are counting. Each one of those people has a built in "Pulse." Their bodies respond to the music. They are artists in their own right. Their bodies take over when the music starts and they are DRIVEN by the beat of the music. Figure out what their body is doing by counting only the beats of the music. All Hustle music has definite "Sets of 8" beats of music. Find the "8's". Just count the music, emphasizing the Upbeats. Count: "One TWO Three FOUR Five SIX Seven EIGHT." You will find that the dancer's body emphasizes that count.

(There's an even stronger quote but I can't find it. Basically along the lines of "When a couple dancers technically well but onlookers find it boring, chances are the dancers didn't pulse to the music").

N.B. Harping on what Skippy says probably seems a little odd if you don't know that she is essentially "God" to an awful lot of WCS dancers.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Not according to Skippy.

(There's an even stronger quote but I can't find it. Basically along the lines of "When a couple dancers technically well but onlookers find it boring, chances are the dancers didn't pulse to the music").

well I don't know anything about hustle really except having watched a few comp not long ago, but again, 'pulsing' kind of makes more sense to me in that context, where even if you know nothing about the dance, you can see that there is some sort of 'hiccough' that seems inherent to the dance (is it every 3 beats or so?).

In WCS, where the movement is smoother and more continous, I still fail to 'see' it, if it wasn't for some strong upbeats being clearly emphasised.

As to how this applies to MJ... I'd say my natural tendency (well, it is in my head, doesn't mean it is happening in my body) would actually be to reduce the 'constant pulsing on the downbeat' (as you described it earlier DF) throughout the dance to make it smoother, and only emphasis it in certain key points of the music (first '1' of a new major phrase, some others '1' and '5'). But again, this might not be what is meant by 'pulsing'.