Rotation V Slot

[Martin]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Oh, OK then.

To me, it seems that some music is more naturally slotted than others - for example, Will Young's "I won't dance" is a lovely slot-music track, with lots of opportunities for travelling returns and things.

Whereas something like Bodyrocker's "I like the way you move" is where I do a lot of walkarounds, wiggling and shimmying as I go, because there aren't so many opportunities to do "moves" to fit with the music that way.

Very good point

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

What do we mean by "slotted"?

I like the descriptions, but in both cases I think that it is the follower's orientation throughout the move that defines it as slotted or rotational. The lead can change this orientation, but their own should match, mirror or be at 90º to their partners to look crisp and controled.
A follower turning on the spot is keeping to a slotted orientation. A follower stepping into a turn and stepping out in the same direction is keeping to the slotted orientation. If the follower steps out at a different angle then the angle of the 'slot' has now changed; The lead can either quickly change their own orientation to match(/mirror/perpendicular) their partners or lead them back to the origional orientation they were on before they changed the angle.
The first option is what tends to "degenerate" the taught 'slot' of MJ into a more amorphous rotational shape.

A follower walking arround the lead makes a move rotational - but the start and exit of the rotational portion should still adhear to the same 'slotted' principle as any other move - the follower has transfered the 'slot' to the lead (who should now maintain their own orientation until the follower's orientation during the rotation suits them - ie 90º segments.)
Again, it's when the follower comes out of the rotation (or is taken out of the rotation) at a different angle that the move looses structure and becomes the same amorphous shape

{I like that word }

When leading on a dance floor in an ever-changing space, one of the best floorcraft skills in avoiding people and utilising the space is purposefully leading your partner out of a rotational move in the direction of a gap or forcing the rotation of a slot into an opening.
To me, this makes MJ a "slotted" dance form that is danced socially without the slot.

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by Gadget

When leading on a dance floor in an ever-changing space, one of the best floorcraft skills in avoiding people and utilising the space is purposefully leading your partner out of a rotational move in the direction of a gap or forcing the rotation of a slot into an opening.
To me, this makes MJ a "slotted" dance form that is danced socially without the slot.

To be entirely fair I find that in practice I will usually end up leading my partner to rotate off the slot just because I need to in order to avoid collisions with other couples who have drifted into our slot themselves. It takes surprisingly few couples who are not sticking to a slot to disrupt the rest of the floor in only a few songs.

I think that's probably the best argument for MJ to *not* be a slotted dance. It's too hard to ingrain the rules in a dance that's supposed to be easy. You can even use the excuse that it improves your floorcraft at the same time, so not only is it easier but it's a more valuble learning experience

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I believe that a follower who dances in the slot follows much better than one who rotates. I can lead rotational moves and on completion I know exactly where the lady will finish where I find rotational dancers often do it without knowing and often backlead.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

To be entirely fair I find that in practice I will usually end up leading my partner to rotate off the slot just because I need to in order to avoid collisions with other couples who have drifted into our slot themselves. It takes surprisingly few couples who are not sticking to a slot to disrupt the rest of the floor in only a few songs.

IMHO this is an example of adjusting the orientation of the slot to fit the available space. It's not really one partner walking around the other in a circular fashion. In fact, a crowded dance floor makes this walking around rather difficult as you will encounter obstacles on a regular basis and have to keep adjusting your circle. It strikes me that an adjustable orientation slot is much better suited to a busy floor than a wonky circle.

[StokeBloke]

It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

[Marc Forster]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

In Modern Jive terms, the way I see it that the leader sets his own individual rules for the follower to interpret. This in my mind is what makes Modern Jive a high risk dance. By the leader imposing a fixed rule within a variable dance style, this will add an element of structure.

To shorten the odds in my favour, I will tend to orientate myself within the room so that the line of dance for the lady travels either North to South or East to West. In a square room, the stage represents North. The theory is the leader will aim to keep his back to the wall during the points of separation while being in a position to keep the follower close to him.

I find this gives me the a contingency plan when things go haywire. I know where I should be facing and how to contain my partners frame within an area I am comfortable with. To be honest, the majority of the time, I'm in a closed hold. What can go wrong?

It's suprising how many followers 'get it' without the leader having to spell it out for them. Once they pick up on that basic style, I find complicated looking moves easy to lead as I know which way I should be facing at which point of the intended move. If the lady happens to do something unpredictable, I'm happy to have danced through a new variation. There is no right or wrong. The best bit is I am balanced within my framework and can easily recover from potential danger and regain control of the dance, regardless of the North to South or East to West axis we may eventually extend upon.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

I think the answer below, given earlier in the thread makes it clear that you can orient your slot where you like. IMHO the slot is all about getting out of the followers way in cross-body leads. But you can easily choose where you exit a circular move to orient your slot differently.

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

On a different subject (touched upon by TA Guy), I see no reason why you can't rotate your slot ( ). If you have a slot going East-West and somebody gets in the way you can easily rotate your slot through ninety degrees to have it going North-South. It's still a slot. And it doesn't have to be ninety degrees. You could see it as the spokes on a bicycle wheel, you can send them up and down the spokes, spinning the wheel every once in a while to send them down a different spoke. When you do a circular move you forget all about the spokes, and then you re-establish the slot for the next slotted move and send them back down your chosen spoke. What could be simpler?

[Steven666]

Personally I have got so used to circular dancing that I find it difficult to lead followers that stay on the narrow path. Yet I do know some great moves that only work on a slot bases which I can invariable never use.

Circular dancing simply exists as it feels more nateral to not worry about positioning or rotation when exiting moves together with the ability of a follower (or even the lead) to turn on a postage stamp. Most simply can't do it and take the easier lazier route when returning. To be honested I sometime take that same route when following but I try to stay in one place when I'm thinking about it.

I think you should do what ever feels more natural for you. For most people that is circular. Unless you in a competition of course then the slot is the only was to go.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Steven666

Personally I have got so used to circular dancing that I find it difficult to lead followers that stay on the narrow path. Yet I do know some great moves that only work on a slot bases which I can invariable never use.

Circular dancing simply exists as it feels more nateral to not worry about positioning or rotation when exiting moves together with the ability of a follower (or even the lead) to turn on a postage stamp. Most simply can't do it and take the easier lazier route when returning. To be honested I sometime take that same route when following but I try to stay in one place when I'm thinking about it.

I think you should do what ever feels more natural for you. For most people that is circular. Unless you in a competition of course then the slot is the only was to go.

This post shows some confusion between rotational moves and another kind of dancing. When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.

The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions

[Steven666]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

This post shows some confusion between rotational moves and another kind of dancing. When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.

The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions

Well that goes completely against what I though this thread was about. I have to disagree slightly.

Granted some leads just don't move out of the way so the follower just moves around them but in a straight line therefore travelling at an angle to the slot but the circular motion I was refering to can be down as to whether the follower can return on the spot. If so then the dance will be more slotted.

If the follower just walks the return then they tend to travel (usually to the leads right) so the lead turns to adjust for this thus changing the position of the slot. But when this happens on every move you just end up dancing in circles as it were.

The other factor is over rotation by the follower on spins and returns where the lead has to adjust their position so to end up square on.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Steven666

Well that goes completely against what I thought this thread was about. I have to disagree slightly.

I think that many people are talking about different things when they say "rotational". And that is why some of the disagreement on this thread is so confusing.

Originally Posted by Steven666

Granted some leads just don't move out of the way so the follower just moves around them but in a straight line therefore travelling at an angle to the slot but the circular motion I was refering to can be down as to whether the follower can return on the spot. If so then the dance will be more slotted.

This doesn't sound like a rotational dance, apart from returns I can't see where there is any rotation. The footprint of the couple may be circular, but the dancers never circle anything or rotate about anything. The lady just dances past the guy at a variable angle - because the guy hasn't got out of her way! Therefore, it's not a slotted dance where the slot changes it's orientation on every cross-body lead, it's just bad dance technique to lead the lady in a way that makes her have to avoid walking into her lead. This bit is the root of the problem "Granted some leads just don't move out of the way". We should not "grant" them permission to dance like this, it's just another way of dancing badly.

[geoff332]

My thoughts are pretty straight forward - in a sense. Some Ceroc moves work much better when danced slotted. Some work much better when danced rotationally. Some - probably most - can be danced either way just as effectively. A few have elements of both thrown in.

A couple of other random thoughts come to mind.

• In class, the slotted structure more often than not involve dancers rotating into their slot at the end of each dance phrase. The line of dance itself shifts all over the place. That is not slotted dancing.
• When slotted dancing is done well the lead is often on the follow's line, getting out of the way as required. This usually results in closer dancing. I find a lot of dancers end up dancing around one another - producing a rotational style.
• Slotted dancing typically requires good footwork. In a simple example, if I'm leading someone through my right hand side, I really have to step back on my right foot or things get messy.
• Another variant on footwork: slotted dancing requires a good appreciation of the difference between different types of spins, turns, and steps with a change of direction. Doing the appropriate thing and doing it without losing the line of dance is actually quite hard.
• It is more than possible to dance a rotational style and take up relatively little room on the dance floor. Similarly, one can dance slotted and still be a rude and inconsiderate dancer. I suspect the basic issue here is not the dancing style, but the dancer.

Where I think I've got my head to is, if you dance very well, either slotted or rotational dancing looks good, feels good and works well. I believe the best dancers can do either well and are capable of mixing them up. Both forms of dancing have a lot of technical bits and pieces you have to get right to make them look good. For those of us who aren't perfect, it's likely that the weaknesses in our dancing will find one or other approach better suited to our particular strengths.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions

Weren't you just advocating the "Spoked" form of dancing? rotating the slot to whatever angle? What's the difference?

[Steven666]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I think that many people are talking about different things when they say "rotational". And that is why some of the disagreement on this thread is so confusing.


This doesn't sound like a rotational dance, apart from returns I can't see where there is any rotation. The footprint of the couple may be circular, but the dancers never circle anything or rotate about anything. The lady just dances past the guy at a variable angle - because the guy hasn't got out of her way! Therefore, it's not a slotted dance where the slot changes it's orientation on every cross-body lead, it's just bad dance technique to lead the lady in a way that makes her have to avoid walking into her lead. This bit is the root of the problem "Granted some leads just don't move out of the way". We should not "grant" them permission to dance like this, it's just another way of dancing badly.

I think it boils down to what you define rotational and circular as.

For me:

Rotational - walkaround moves, rotating purposely around dance partner

Circular - Follower walking around lead therfore not ending up on the original slot that the move started on.

We are probably arguing the same cause by the looks of it!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Weren't you just advocating the "Spoked" form of dancing? rotating the slot to whatever angle? What's the difference?

The difference is that the spoked form is controlled and the guy still steps in and out of the lady's slot. In the other kind of circular dance the lady has to wander down one of those spokes as the guy is in her way.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.

Blimey, Andy, you almost sound like a proper teacher with that post...