Rotation V Slot

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by

I have to disagree. that isn't DJ's "worst dancing ever". I've seen him dance to a much lower standard. I think it was having a great partner that lifted his game It's a shame the cameraman used wide-screen mode, it made it look like DJ is fat with very short legs

It looks like he was expanding his dance to fill the space available. It certainly takes up plenty of room. DJ is dancing in the slot, he's just being sloppy with it. He's crossing the slot quite nicely and then not making it all the way across. This is what's causing him to dance in a Star of David pattern. Next time I'm using the urinal next to him I'll check if there's a religious significance to this pattern

I agree with Mr666 about the travelling return being the root of this sloppy style dancing. I call the travelling return "my favourite move" as an excuse for the number of times I teach it. It really is fundamental to dancing in the slot - and getting it wrong is fundamental to sloppy dancing. The main thing people get wrong with the travelling return is not getting out of the slot completely and not leading the lady/follwer straight down the slot: the other thing that's often wrong is what DJ was doing, not crossing the slot completely.

It's good of DJ to demonstrate what can go wrong. Not only is he deliberately sloppy, he's demonstrating how a bad choice of clothes can make your dancing look even worse

[straycat]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Just in case you really are confused, it's the punchline to a joke:

I know - I was just being mean
(plus I think it's high time you left poor Flossie alone )

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by straycat264

(plus I think it's high time you left poor Flossie alone )

Ewe can't pull the wool over my eyes. Flossie told me you've been following her around like a sheepdog, eyeing her up like a lamb to the slaughter, playing the shepherd when all you really want to do is give her a good ramming.

Any more of it, and I'll fleece you for every penny ewe've got!

[timbp]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

S
For example, when leading Tango, I should focus on lots of areas, including:

• Clear leading
• Posture
• Intention / projection
• Footwork
• Frame
• etc.

On a good day, I reckon I can now get about 2 or 3 of these going at once for a short period. And until I can get to the "unconscious competence" level with these, I won't be able to achieve good technique.

So which two or three should I focus on?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by timbp

So which two or three should I focus on?

In my opinion, you should always focus first on providing a good lead to your partner - so I'd recommend "clear lead" and "intention / projection".

I'd probably also add "musicality" to that list - as I'm now* starting to hear the changes in tempo in AT tracks, I'm starting to change the speed of dancing to match.

Things like footwork, patterns, decorations and so on are - to me - very much secondary. If I can lead my partner through a dance with some simple walks and sidesteps, to music, then I count that a Good Dance.

* Yes, only now, 2 years on...

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by

Sorry. Was waiting to film you for ages and that dance was poss the best of the bunch.


I have gone from being a rotational dancer to a slotted Mj dancer. The reason I was rotational is that the teachers this way all teach over rotating the follow and teach the follows to over rotate themselves.

The other thing they do is just not talk about the slot. When dancing with people that dont dance the slot it either goes really well as it is easier to lead or goes T*ts up as they try to turn themselves.

I have been to classes from Brighton to Rye and no teacher teaches slottedness at all and every single one teaches over rotation.

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

So, why are these selfish and dangerous dancers getting their slotted and circular moves confused? They are not really to blame, they are badly served by their teachers. It's probably their teachers who should be shot or castrated, the bad dancers themselves deserve our sympathy - although a Tazer shot once in a while would help speed their re-education

Have to actually agree with Andy on this. Having danced at Shoreham and Findon, Shooting the teacher is cert the best option for these dancers.



The thing I always wonder about slotted dancing is why does everyone dance slotted in the lesson then rotate as soon as soon as they go in to freestyle? Would be greatfull for any suggestions as to why this happens as it compleatly baffles me. I Prob done it myself whilst learning. Think everyone did at one time whether they slotted or not.

There must be a fundamental part of the teaching of MJ that makes people dance rotated. Was suggested earlier it may be the returns / Travelling returns, but this should not matter as can still be done in slot. Maybe it is the fact that timing is not taught as part of the course. When talking about slotted dancing, I would always suggest that the dancers are at the end of their slots by the end of the bar of music (depending on move) But talking to a compleate beginner of even most intermediate dancers about beats per bar etc is prob me agro than its worth and a nightmare to do in a class situation of 70+.

Again, most people go dancing as their thing to do on a tuesday night and couldn't careless whether they look good on the dance floor or not. They just want to have a good bounce, pull a few faces and over rotate. Thats up to them. They dont all want to worry about musicality, slots, and beats per bar. Fair play to them. Dance is much easier and fun without these worries.

Anyway, Slotted dancing does have its advantges in that it is easier to lead, is better looking and allows more play.

Danced at Lazy Dave's recently in Northampton and most, if not all of the dancers, stayed in a slot. This is due to Daves teaching from the start.

If MJ is to develop in to a slotted dance form, then it has to be rebuilt at the roots and the teaching.

Fair play to DJ for having his vid up.

Most have prob seen it before but there is a vid of me before I even thought / new about slotting YouTube - Lee and nic dancing Ceroc Modern Jive
and one whist getting closser to working within a slot. Still a little over turning of my dance partner in it (witty) but more slotted than before YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc

[gebandemuishond]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

The thing I always wonder about slotted dancing is why does everyone dance slotted in the lesson then rotate as soon as soon as they go in to freestyle? Would be greatfull for any suggestions as to why this happens as it compleatly baffles me. I Prob done it myself whilst learning. Think everyone did at one time whether they slotted or not.

You don't often find people claiming they stopped learning, usually it's the dance-is-a-journey, never-stop-absorbing-new-stuff etc. Only joking, I know the sentence probably has a silent "the basics" in there.

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

There must be a fundamental part of the teaching of MJ that makes people dance rotated. Was suggested earlier it may be the returns / Travelling returns, but this should not matter as can still be done in slot. Maybe it is the fact that timing is not taught as part of the course. When talking about slotted dancing, I would always suggest that the dancers are at the end of their slots by the end of the bar of music (depending on move) But talking to a compleate beginner of even most intermediate dancers about beats per bar etc is prob me agro than its worth and a nightmare to do in a class situation of 70+.

Could you clarify this please, I'm quite interested. I would have thought that in most modern jive moves the points at which dancers are at the ends of the slot don't really coincide with the bars of music (just tried this quickly to convince myself). I guess you could distort it so they did coincide, but I really don't see much point . Or have I got it all wrong?

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Most have prob seen it before but there is a vid of me before I even thought / new about slotting YouTube - Lee and nic dancing Ceroc Modern Jive
and one whist getting closser to working within a slot. Still a little over turning of my dance partner in it (witty) but more slotted than before YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc

I have never really paid much attention to dancing in a slot because 1) Most followers don't seem to mind and 2) I don't think other people really watch me dancing so there's not much point from an asthetic perspective, but after seeing those two clips I think I'll try to in future. Good work!

Dan

[DavidB]

If Modern Jive is not a rotational dance, but only rotates because of the limitations of the couples dancing, then you would expect to see a mixture of styles:
- rotating clockwise
- not rotating
- rotating anticlockwise.

How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?


Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.

I think that Modern Jive is what Modern Jive does. If people are dancing well and rotating that's fine. However, I see a lot of cross-body leads that simply don't get out of the way of their partner because they have not been taught to do so - that makes moves more of a collision in progress with the lady avoiding a body to body collision. As the guy usually leads the lady clockwise around him the rotation will usually be the same way.

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.

I don't imagine anyone would try. Slotted dancing also required moving your feet, so we understand that it's well outside your comfort zone

How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?

Given that the majority of moves seem to start with a left-hand/right-hand hold this doesn't seem too surprising. I think I'd find rotating the dance in that direction very difficult without resorting to different handholds for most of the moves I use.

I'm not sure it's an intentional design so much as an unintended consequence of the moves we choose to use as our basics.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Could you clarify this please, I'm quite interested. I would have thought that in most modern jive moves the points at which dancers are at the ends of the slot don't really coincide with the bars of music (just tried this quickly to convince myself). I guess you could distort it so they did coincide, but I really don't see much point . Or have I got it all wrong?

It's quite hard to explain in written form. Prob best demonstrated but will try.

Take a Octopus for example. Most dancers who rotate would pull the woman forward and she would step around the lead. The man steps forward for the next part and again the woman would move around the man.

Done during the class, people tend to stay within a slot. That is they finish the move roughly in the same slot that they started in. However, done under the 'pressure' and speed of freestyle, they will over exaggerate the movements and end up going around in a circle.


If we do this in a slotted fashion....

The man would step forward and to his left as he pulls the woman in to the basket part. On the second beat the lead would step forward and to his left again as the woman steps back. The man ends up where the woman started and the woman ends up where the man was facing each other at the respective ends of their slots. Using this technique at speed will still keep the dancers within their slots.

As for whats meant by timing and bars etc...

MJ music consists of 4 beats to a bar (most music is 4 beats per bar but there are a few exceptions ie Waltz timing which is 3 beats per bar) which is why it is counted 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & during classes. Most people (and the way it is taught at class level) is the dancer moves during the numbers in the count and not on the &'s

Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.

One of the great things about slottedness is say we are doing the Octopus or a similar move that takes 6 beats and we suddenly think "ahh a break is comming up in the next bar" we are going to end up with 2 beats to fit a move in. Personally I can only think of one or two moves and one of them is a travelling return.

If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.


I mentioned the neutral position slotted dancing gives you where you both after almost every move (there are meant exceptions though) end up facing each other with tension. Almost any move is leadable from here as shoulders and feet are towards each other so when you pull the follow forward, all she needs to is walk forwards along her line in the slot and the lead will do the rest. If she is over turned, she will be a) pulled off balance b) poss have to put another step in to turn herself back on course or c) go in to a turn mis-interperating your pull forward as a turn due to the pull forward pulling her out of her over turn and therfore starting to rotate her.


Hope all of this makes sense. Does within my little monkey brain.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.

but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move.

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

One of the great things about slottedness is say we are doing the Octopus or a similar move that takes 6 beats and we suddenly think "ahh a break is comming up in the next bar" we are going to end up with 2 beats to fit a move in. Personally I can only think of one or two moves and one of them is a travelling return.

If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.

I'm not sure I'm following you there. Generally speaking slotted dancing looks more controlled and neat than rotational dancing (therefore offers more oppportunity for contrast), but I don't see why dancing in a circle would be any less musical than dancing slotted. You could show just as well that you are intentionally phrasing the music. I'm not sure I agree that when dancing in a circle people move around the circle that fast that there is significant over-turning or even preping. The leader and follower are still facing each other.

[Lee Bartholomew]

[quote=Caro;442046]but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move. {/quote}

The 6 beats are 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & . As said people dont tend to dance on the & . Not at any classes I have been to anyway, but I know what you mean.

Originally Posted by Caro

I'm not sure I'm following you there. Generally speaking slotted dancing looks more controlled and neat than rotational dancing (therefore offers more oppportunity for contrast), but I don't see why dancing in a circle would be any less musical than dancing slotted. You could show just as well that you are intentionally phrasing the music. I'm not sure I agree that when dancing in a circle people move around the circle that fast that there is significant over-turning or even preping. The leader and follower are still facing each other.

The overturning is quite often taught though which is part to blame for the rotation. If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

The overturning is quite often taught though which is part to blame for the rotation. If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Again not sure I get you there. How is over-turning taught when classes (that I have seen) actually teach people to dance slotted (albeit for practical reasons)?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by Caro

Again not sure I get you there. How is over-turning taught when classes (that I have seen) actually teach people to dance slotted (albeit for practical reasons)?

You dance in better places than I do .

Most teachers dont say 'over turn' they suger coat it by saying 'prepare'.

As I said, The whole slotted concept is hard to explain in words.

[gebandemuishond]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

As for whats meant by timing and bars etc...

MJ music consists of 4 beats to a bar (most music is 4 beats per bar but there are a few exceptions ie Waltz timing which is 3 beats per bar) which is why it is counted 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & during classes. Most people (and the way it is taught at class level) is the dancer moves during the numbers in the count and not on the &'s

Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.

This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase, which is why the Octopus with its 6 count pattern feels odd, because you have 2 more dance counts (one whole musical bar) until the music 'starts again' or the break happens or whatever.

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats (should be counts) left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats (counts) than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.

I see, so you like to be at the end of the slot at the end of each musical phrase, so you can do something new to reflect the new phrase. Makes sense, I know I hate to get caught in the middle of a 6 count pattern in WCS when one phrase ends and another begins (unfortunately I'm not yet good enough at WCS to avoid this all the time).

Originally Posted by Caro