Rotation V Slot

[gebandemuishond]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

So very true. I try my best to do so in a friendly and efficient manner though.

Well, the move as I know it only changes places twice and that is possible in 6 beats.

That said, it'd take some pretty tight footwork to do it comfortably to that song but not impossible. Certainly it's doable to slower songs.

I recommend taking one of Amirs workshops on musicality if ever get a chance. Other teachers with fine reputations also offer similar ones from time to time, such as Frank or David and Lily Barker although I've never had the privilege of taking them myself.

For what it's worth, the phrasing I've described appears to me to be pretty much universally accepted. Or at least on three continents and a number of islands. As I've said before I believe the definitions used by musicians are a little different, but are not terribly applicable here.

For what it's worth, the definition I've provided isn't hard and fast either. There are exceptions even in some pop tracks. There is at least one song on my iPod that has 32 beat major phrases with a 4 beat bridge between each one. Similarly, there is an AC/DC song that simply misses a beat in one bar. Situations like these are not common however.

A difference of opinion is one thing. Telling someone outright that they're wrong* and then giving them information that directly contradicts very well established dance theory is another thing entirely.

I'm not being bitchy (well, trying not to anyway). I'm calling out a claim so that I can understand where you're coming from. It isn't personal, and nobody's going to hold a grudge.

*And I'm not sure if he was or not...I tend to lightly skim over Lee's posts as I find them hard to read sometimes so I didn't bother checking

Ok, let's suppose I'm wrong about the length of a phrase as defined by dancers. It doesn't actually matter, I said Lee was wrong about a different but related matter (the beat/count confusion I think it was).

Where I come from the Octopus changes place 3 times and you probably couldn't do that in 6 beats of music, no matter how nimble your feet.

To be honest, it's all largely irrelevant as you don't need to count beats to dance with musicality.


Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Happy dancing guys, I'll be back when I'm the next Amir .

Dan

[Caro]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

come on geb don't throw your Play Schools just yet, take the feedback on board and move on

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Happy dancing guys, I'll be back when I'm the next Amir .

Dan

Come on geb. This was a robust debate with no name calling or personal comments that I could see.

FWIW I thought your post on phrasing in music was fab and think someone who can make such posts is an asset to the forum

Originally Posted by Caro

come on geb don't throw your Play Schools just yet, take the feedback on board and move on

[Amir]

Phrase and Sentence
If any simple four-line folk tune, hymn tune, &c., be hummed through, it will be felt to fall definitely into two haves; these are musical Sentences. If one of these sentences be now hummed it will be felt to fall again into two halves; these are musical phrases. in this analysis two 'Phrases' form a 'Sentence', but some theorists would prefer to call the 'Sentence' the group of the four 'Phrases' there is no accepted understanding amongst musicians on this point but all are pretty well agreed as to the meaning of the word 'phrase', though in analysing any particular composition one theorist might on occasion prefer to consider as one phrase a particular passage which another would prefer to consider as two phrases....

The normal length of a phrase is four measures, but three-measure phrases are not uncommon, and what has obviously been first conceived by the composer as a four-measure phrase is often found to have been extended by him to five measures. There is thus no rule as to phrase length, and indeed the introduction of a change of length often gives a very accepted variety.

The phase itself, short as it may be, is not the lowest unit; closely examined it will often be found to fall into half phrases and these into motifs.

The building up of a long movement in composition is then from the motif to the half phrase to the phrase, to the sentence, to the subject, to the section and so the movement of the composition as a whole.

-The Oxford Companion to Music, Scholes

And in case you were wondering, a measure is what most of us here call a bar, because ‘The measures are, in notation, marked off from one another by ‘bars’ or ‘bar-lines’ before each of the strongly accented beats. As a consequence, the British have come to use the word bar for ‘measure’, which is illogical and yet seems to cause little confusion.’

So dance teachers who call 32 counts a 'phrase' are wrong, from a music theory point of view, but we misuse words like syncopation and say silly things like 'dance to the melody, not the rhythm' (when in fact rhythm is one of the components of melody) so best just to be aware that the same words are being used by different people to mean different things, and even amongst dance teachers 'phrase' will not always mean the same thing, although in WCS it seems fairly standardized.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Can't be done, I'm afraid... like the rest of us, you're now doomed to keep posting on here for all eternity. You don't think any of us are here by choice, do you? (Take DavidJames, for example, who's been posting on here since 1864)...

Back on the off-topic, I'm a little unclear on why it seems to matter so much - it's just a matter of terminology, after all. A lot of us have very different ways of looking at it, but it all amounts to the same thing. Since my focus is Lindy and proper music (swing ), I think in terms of 1 count=1 beat, 1 bar= 8 beats (or two musical bars) - but it's still describing exactly the same music, and means just the same thing.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by straycat264

Back on the off-topic, I'm a little unclear on why it seems to matter so much - it's just a matter of terminology, after all. A lot of us have very different ways of looking at it, but it all amounts to the same thing. Since my focus is Lindy and proper music (swing ), I think in terms of 1 count=1 beat, 1 bar= 8 beats (or two musical bars) - but it's still describing exactly the same music, and means just the same thing.

it doesn't indeed, I think most of us are aware that musicians and dancers use different terminologies, and sometimes dancers do too (for example your dancer bar to me it is either 2 bars or a mini-phrase). It's just important that one clarifies what one means so that we can keep understanding each other, instead of starting to claim 'you're wrong / incorrect / whatever'.

[gebandemuishond]

Apologies to all. It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

Dan

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Apologies to all. It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

Dan

Not a problem gebandemuishond

And thank you to Amir for posting that musicians definition of phrases as well

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Apologies to all. It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

Dan

Welcome back

Andy

p.s. Just gone midnight? That wasn't late at night. This is late at night

[Lee Bartholomew]

The octopus is def done over 6 beats.

There are 4 beats to a bar, my music reading skills and many years of playing piano and guitar etc may have taught me wrong but I doubt it .

The &'s are half beats. Go back to the learning of the octopus and you will find teacher teach it along the lines of...

Wrap & out & man wrap & out & woman wrap & out.

The words simply replace the 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

Now if Anyone dances on the &'s then thats fine, just dancing on the half beats, what many people call double time.

Mods - Should the whole counts thing be in another thread as it is not really part of the rotation stuff.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

The octopus is def done over 6 beats.

There are 4 beats to a bar, my music reading skills and many years of playing piano and guitar etc may have taught me wrong but I doubt it .

[etc]

I think this is one of those cases where the terminology does need nailing down a bit more.

To take a solid example: I think everyone knows Popa Chubby's Sweat. First chorus comes at 1:51

Now... in purely musical terms, the word 'Sweat' occurs on beat 1 of the bar. Four beats in the bar, and the next bar starts with 'Bullets'. In Lindy terms, that's one bar, or one eight-count.

I would contend that one pass of an Octopus would take one musical bar, or half a Lindy bar, or four counts, so in Lindy terms it's a twelve count move - you could do it in six only by double-timing it.

Would it be a fair summary to say you're talking about them MJ counts mentioned somewhere in this thread, of two beats per count, hence six of your 'MJ counts'?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by straycat264

To take a solid example: I think everyone knows Popa Chubby's Sweat.

Nope, Too young and too trendy.

Originally Posted by straycat264

Would it be a fair summary to say you're talking about them MJ counts mentioned somewhere in this thread, of two beats per count, hence six of your 'MJ counts'?

I thought everyone would be talking about MJ 'counts' as it is a MJ forum and a thread about rotational / slotted MJ!!??

Anyway.. Fact is in musical terms, with normal timings, there are 4 beats per bar and in between them beats are half beats .

Most people dance on the beat. Some more advanced dancers use the half beats as do wCS, and Lindy'ers, but we are talking MJ here...

There are moves that use half beats, manhattens () etc, but all beginners moves use the beat.

Forget MJ counts, if this is going to be discused further, lets talk beats and half beats to stop any confusion, rather than MJ counts, Lindy Counts etc.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Anyway.. Fact is in musical terms, with normal timings, there are 4 beats per bar and in between them beats are half beats .

that's my understanding too, well as far as 4/4 music is concerned.

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

There are moves that use half beats, manhattens () etc, but all beginners moves use the beat.

the problem seems to be that here in this example you call half-beat what most of us call just 'beat' (as in 4 beats per bar).
I would rephrase and say that 'beginners moves use the downbeat', I think that's clearer as afaik there aren't different definitions (musicians / dancers) for downbeat and upbeat. Manhattans make you step on both downbeats and upbeats.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Forget MJ counts, if this is going to be discused further, lets talk beats and half beats to stop any confusion, rather than MJ counts, Lindy Counts etc.

OK - fine by me. So four beats to the bar, hence 12 beats to an Octopus (see my earlier post for the explanation)

Grand. Where were we again?

[EricD]

Originally Posted by straycat264

Where were we again?

Rotating. Or not.

Forgive me if someone's already suggested this, but I find rotation as a couple can occur if the follower doesn't return 'on the spot', but takes a step or two to her left while turning.

I thought I heard it called a 'Sinéad' turn. Or is it a fancy French way of saying 'chained' ? (Chainé ?) You know, when you put your footprints in a straight line, instead of making a tiny circle so you end with your feet back where they started.

Last year there was an attempt in Ceroc Central to get people to 'spin' their turns: turning 360° on one foot as a pivot during 1.5 whatsits of the music, braking with the other, and stepping back on the pivot foot for 0.5 whatsits. (Whatsits? I'm trying to avoid controversy here ...)
It only seems to happen in some Lessons, Workshops and on free DVDs though, not on the dancefloor!

I think of my feet in a turn as walking like a bulldozer turning on the spot - one track (foot) goes forwards, the other goes back. Either you do the splits or turn in a zero-radius circle so you end up where you started.

If you make a quarter-spin+quarter-turn on each foot then you are in the equivalent case of being half-way between spinning and turning. This seems to be commonest.

jivemecrazy.com ('International Latin Jive World Superstar' - ie ballroom? - Karina Smirnoff) spins her returns at 7 seconds and demos slowly at 48 seconds.

jivenation.co.uk Susie Kable ('BEST DANCE LESSONS in the WORLD'!) goes to the other extreme - turning her spins ! Even when she is spinning, she is transferring her weight from foot to foot, but at twice the normal rate. (turn at 17, 28, 37, spin at 18 & 30 seconds)

Both seem to end where they started, or at least 'in the slot'.
Is modesty an antipodean trait? (Yes, NZmonkey, I know we're the real antipodeans here in the UK!)

Personally I like to contrast a turn (raise & hold the hand, normal-speed footwork) and a spin (flat hand, lead with both hands push-pull, rotate on one foot). I think the distinction is worth preserving.

I am not sure how I would lead a spin by raising her hand !

Perhaps this should be another thread/poll ?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by straycat264

OK - fine by me. So four beats to the bar, hence 12 beats to an Octopus (see my earlier post for the explanation)

Grand. Where were we again?

Actually Stray, I agree. You are right. The & is norm a music beat as well so 12 beats for an octopuss. Said I had a monkey brain.

Back to slotted talk...

[tsh]

Based on my observations from utopia, rotation appeared to be created not by 'wandering returns', but by the 'step forward at 45 degrees' which some followers seem to have adopted. Returns won't help, but they don't seem to detract significantly from me trying to lead linear patterns. Since my linear patterns involve me stepping off the slot, if the follower tries to walk round me as well, the rotation becomes more exaggerated so it sort of makes sense...

Sean

[timbp]

Originally Posted by EricD

Rotating. Or not.

Forgive me if someone's already suggested this, but I find rotation as a couple can occur if the follower doesn't return 'on the spot', but takes a step or two to her left while turning.

And the leader doesn't follow.
If the leader does follow to maintain the orientation of the slot, then you get translation instead of rotation.

Which do you want? Depends where the space is on the dance floor.

I generally try to lead a slotted dance, but I'll change that at any time to fit the available floor space.