Rotation V Slot

TA Guy · 3rd-June-2007, 10:50 AM

Which do you use/prefer ? Why ?

I kinda use both, I suspect most will fall into that category. Some moves lend themselves to a slot path, some moves lend themselves to rotating. I don't like to limit to one or the other as, IMO, as far as MJ goes, it degrades the dance.

I always assume MJ was not slotted for the simple reason that the inventor was definitely a rotator. As were his peers. On the other hand, that would mean the bouncy hand style is the way to go!!! The fact that teaching is done in a slot is a red herring since it's been known since the dawn of time that the reason for that was logistical. So although MJ has traditionally been a rotated dance, the rising popularity of WCS seemed to have increased the amount of slotted MJ dancing. But is that a good enough reason ? Or are there other reasons ?

TA Guy · 3rd-June-2007, 11:01 AM

Ohhhh bu**er!
I did a search on 'rotating' amd 'slot' in thread titles and came up with naught. Turns out there is a massive thread that exists on this. Oh well.

Mary · 3rd-June-2007, 12:22 PM

MJ has it's roots in Lindy which is a rotational dance. The increasing influence of WCS gives rise to the slotted style, which was developed as a result of being able to orientate towards the camera when it was used in Hollywood (so I understand).

I used to prefer the rotating style but I now prefer the slotted style - it looks cleaner and more dynamic. Don't forget there are no rules on how wide the slot should be.

I have found that beginner ladies prefer the slotted style in freestyle as it helps them to orientate themselves as they have to do a lot of spinning.

M

*Andy McGregor* · 3rd-June-2007, 02:40 PM

IMHO, there are moves that are slotted and there are moves where the partners walk around each other in circular moves. In my opinion, most of the real circular moves are danced with the partners quite close together so don't take up much space. Most of the slotted moves are danced in an open hand-hold with the partners further apart. To dance slotted moves in a circular fashion takes up much more space on the dance floor. This is why I think that the dancers who dance slotted moves in a circular fashion should be shot, at the very least castrated: they are selfish as they take up about 3 times as much space on the dance floor as a person who knows the difference between a slotted and circular move. Plus, dancing slotted moves in a circular fashion is so messy and imprecise, you have little idea where you're leading your partner resulting in an increase in collisions and injuries.

So, why are these selfish and dangerous dancers getting their slotted and circular moves confused? They are not really to blame, they are badly served by their teachers. It's probably their teachers who should be shot or castrated, the bad dancers themselves deserve our sympathy - although a Tazer shot once in a while would help speed their re-education

TA Guy · 3rd-June-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

IMHO, there are moves that are slotted and there are moves where the partners walk around each other in circular moves. In my opinion, most of the real circular moves are danced with the partners quite close together so don't take up much space. Most of the slotted moves are danced in an open hand-hold with the partners further apart. To dance slotted moves in a circular fashion takes up much more space on the dance floor.

I'd never thought of that

Trying to think of an open circular move and can't. Nearest I can come to is some kind of one handed walkaround, but even that's not really fully extended.

TA Guy · 3rd-June-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mary

MJ has it's roots in Lindy which is a rotational dance. The increasing influence of WCS gives rise to the slotted style, which was developed as a result of being able to orientate towards the camera when it was used in Hollywood (so I understand).

I used to prefer the rotating style but I now prefer the slotted style - it looks cleaner and more dynamic. Don't forget there are no rules on how wide the slot should be.

I have found that beginner ladies prefer the slotted style in freestyle as it helps them to orientate themselves as they have to do a lot of spinning.

M

Agree with the 'cleaner' comment. Or 'neater' as I prefer to say

Not sure I agree with the 'dynamic' comment. Lindy and MJ can both be pretty dynamic. WCS always strikes me as a slightly more controlled dance. And 100% slotted MJ would have to be as well I'd presume ?

Mary · 3rd-June-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TA Guy

Not sure I agree with the 'dynamic' comment. Lindy and MJ can both be pretty dynamic. WCS always strikes me as a slightly more controlled dance. And 100% slotted MJ would have to be as well I'd presume ?

I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

M

*Andy McGregor* · 3rd-June-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mary

I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

M

Mary is, IMHO, totally correct. The travelling return is the move I use to demonstrate the slottedness of most open hand-hold MJ moves. I tell the guys they should consider themselves as the matador and the lady the bull "with very sharp horns". They "matador" must move completely out of the way of the "charging bull". They should not expect the bull to change course because they are standing in the way.

The other example I use (if they get my dose wrong at the nursing home

) is the narrow path in the woods. This narrow path doesn't have room for people to pass unless they both turn sideways and give way 50% each. But this isn't what you do in MJ. The guy needs to step into the brambles and stinging nettles to let the lady pass on the path as if he wasn't there - the guy then steps back onto the path and calls the lady back...

paul stevo · 3rd-June-2007, 05:19 PM

We never teacher a travelling return, as we think it`s the biggest reason for people not returning on the spot. It seems in freestyle people don`t do either a return or a travelling return...they do a mixture of the 2 with the follower ending up side on to the leader.

TA Guy · 3rd-June-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mary

I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Mary is, IMHO, totally correct. The travelling return is the move I use to demonstrate the slottedness of most open hand-hold MJ moves. I tell the guys they should consider themselves as the matador and the lady the bull "with very sharp horns". They "matador" must move completely out of the way of the "charging bull". They should not expect the bull to change course because they are standing in the way.

OK, maybe I dance more in a slot than I realized, but I always assumed this was good MJ practise anyway. I always get out of the way. A non-spinning example is the octopus. Good leads always just step slightly out of the ladies way so she has a clear path. Same with travelling return, I do a fair few of those and, yup, you got it

I get out of the way.
I know it's more important for WCS where the dance rules dictate you stay in the slot, but I've always assumed that was just good MJ practise anyway.

I've even heard that taught!!!

*Andy McGregor* · 3rd-June-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul stevo

We never teacher a travelling return, as we think it`s the biggest reason for people not returning on the spot. It seems in freestyle people don`t do either a return or a travelling return...they do a mixture of the 2 with the follower ending up side on to the leader.

OMG!!

The received wisdom is that a return on the spot is a beginners thing. I occasionally incorporate it into intermediate routines as a device for helping the lady find her feet after something quick or with many changes in direction. However, the best advice you can give somebody for improving their dancing is to take out most of the returns on the spot. So, I agree with Paul that the travelling return is a big reason for not returning on the spot. However, I totally disagree that this is the reason for not teaching the travelling return

IMHO the travelling return is a great move which enables to to seamlessly collect the lady's free hand and is a basic building block of many MJ moves.

spindr · 3rd-June-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

The received wisdom is that a return on the spot is a beginners thing.

Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't

SpinDr

*DJ Andy* · 3rd-June-2007, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindr

Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't

SpinDr

There are plenty of intermediate and above dancers who have a bad habit of wandering off towards 90 degrees clockwise of me when I spin them.

At least I think it's a bad habit and not my bad lead!

spindr · 3rd-June-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Andy

There are plenty of intermediate and above dancers who have a bad habit of wandering off towards 90 degrees clockwise of me when I spin them.

At least I think it's a bad habit and not my bad lead!

Well, I'm told that followers should finish their turn/spin so that they face the leader -- or until the leader stops the turn/spin.

So, I guess it's not you

SpinDr

**Gadget** · 3rd-June-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindr

Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't

That's what causes the majority of 'slotted' moves to turn into rotational moves: the followers traveling on the returns, turns and spins. It is possable for the lead to work out how much they do this and compensate to keep them in that slot, but normally it's too much hard work

All moves (with only a couple of exceptions) are taught in a slot. The lack of precision in leading/following makes 180º and 360º turns off by varying degrees, then one/both partners end up adjusting the virtual slot so that the new orientation of their partner dicates the new direction the 'slot' runs.
Being able to actually do this is one of the key things that moves a dancer away from "beginner" status; they are beginning to take an interest in their parnter and move with them.
When dancers start being precise enough to keep to the 180º/360º and adjust to keep their partner within a slot on these lines, then they move away from the "intermediate" status.

Personally I try and dance in 90º segments... or various paths weaving through dancers... or close enough that the term "slot" has no meaning.

*Andy McGregor* · 4th-June-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindr

Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't

SpinDr

In the world of dance that I inhabit we've all been told that a great way to progress is to cut out most of the turns and returns on the spot, especially if we're doing competitions. Once you've tried this you will find that your dancing flows much better and looks better too - if that bothers you.

NZ Monkey · 4th-June-2007, 04:59 AM

I'm definitely a fan of the slotted style myself and I'm having a hard time thinking of a move that requires rotation permanently off the original slot. You can both leave the slot during a rotating part of a move but I prefer finishing back in the same slot. Like Mary, I think a slotted style looks and feels more dynamic.

The biggest reason I've found for the dance to start rotating is the follower stepping forward immediately after going back. If I haven't led anything yet then I'm in her way at this point and she steps to my right automatically. Sometimes if I have led something and am out of her way she will step to the right of where I was anyway. It's just simple anticipation that does it and it's understandable when 98% of the guys they dance with will pull their partner back into something immediately after every move, and never get out of their partners way to do it.

Don't worry Mary - you don't anticipate

I know a slotted style is prefered by most if not all of the teachers here in Auckland but it's rarely actually mentioned by them in classes so the student uptake on it is limited. I *think* CMJ Australia teach a slotted style explicitly from day one so it'd be interesting to hear what one of their dances has to say on the rotation issue.....

Groovemeister · 4th-June-2007, 09:17 AM

Your obviously discussing the merits of "dancing" in the slot or rotating.

I come from a different way of thinking as I change my style depending on
1) The music style
2) If I just want to dance rather than think about what I am doing.
3) The speed of the music
4) The partner

Also add into this the types of moves I fancy doing. As Andy has said there are some MJ moves that just don't lend themeselves to slotted dancing. If I want to incorporate them I change and rotate.

spindr · 4th-June-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

In the world of dance that I inhabit we've all been told that a great way to progress is to cut out most of the turns and returns on the spot, especially if we're doing competitions. Once you've tried this you will find that your dancing flows much better and looks better too - if that bothers you.

I think you are mixing up a number of different concepts

Rotations on the spot (not necessarily pirouettes per se) are a key point of many dances including ballroom, latin, tango, salsa, etc., etc. Learning to maintain a strong (shared) axis of rotation is a really useful skill.

There's a great deal of precision in dancing a turn/spin on the spot. Certainly, there's twice as much rotation in a regular turn/spin than in a travelling version. Obviously, there's more apparent motion in a travelling version and certainly an order of magnitude more optical flow (if you're at right angles to an audience) -- but then I don't tend to dance for one

I don't know how/what judges mark -- maybe it's precision, maybe technique, maybe just the amount you move?

I think that neglecting basic spinning technique will adversely affect your dancing -- you'll be likely to fall out of the spin. This means that if you are dancing a slotted style, then you've just caused the slot to move -- which isn't normally the done thing. I think you'll find that your slotted dancing style will improve if you concentrate on the basics -- if that bothers you

SpinDr

Mary · 4th-June-2007, 11:09 AM

There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

It is very commom for ladies to wander when they are spinning - quite a lot are not taught how to avoid this, or are just simply not aware that they are doing it. In the Ceroc workshops it is often very apparent that quite a few guys can't keep themselves in a straight line, let alone lead their ladies in a straight line - the concept seems completely alien even though a move taught specifically leads the lady from one end of a slot to the other. Sadly this often happens in an intermediate workshop, so all they want to do is learn moves, not leading a lady in a straight line

View Poll Results: Like, pick one...
All or virtually all slotted MJ.	5	10.64%
All or virtually all rotated MJ.	1	2.13%
Slotted except moves that demand rotation.	18	38.30%
Rotated except moves that demand slot.	3	6.38%
A right good mix.	19	40.43%
No rotation and no slotting (Jiminy Cricket! Please explain below?)	1	2.13%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll \| Withdraw Vote

3rd-June-2007, 10:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
TA Guy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sunny South Hampshire Posts: 698 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 312	Rotation V Slot Which do you use/prefer ? Why ? I kinda use both, I suspect most will fall into that category. Some moves lend themselves to a slot path, some moves lend themselves to rotating. I don't like to limit to one or the other as, IMO, as far as MJ goes, it degrades the dance. I always assume MJ was not slotted for the simple reason that the inventor was definitely a rotator. As were his peers. On the other hand, that would mean the bouncy hand style is the way to go!!! The fact that teaching is done in a slot is a red herring since it's been known since the dawn of time that the reason for that was logistical. So although MJ has traditionally been a rotated dance, the rising popularity of WCS seemed to have increased the amount of slotted MJ dancing. But is that a good enough reason ? Or are there other reasons ?

3rd-June-2007, 11:01 AM	#2 (permalink)
TA Guy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sunny South Hampshire Posts: 698 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 312	Re: Rotation V Slot Ohhhh bu**er! I did a search on 'rotating' amd 'slot' in thread titles and came up with naught. Turns out there is a massive thread that exists on this. Oh well.

3rd-June-2007, 12:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mary Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: West London Posts: 1,555 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 533	Re: Rotation V Slot MJ has it's roots in Lindy which is a rotational dance. The increasing influence of WCS gives rise to the slotted style, which was developed as a result of being able to orientate towards the camera when it was used in Hollywood (so I understand). I used to prefer the rotating style but I now prefer the slotted style - it looks cleaner and more dynamic. Don't forget there are no rules on how wide the slot should be. I have found that beginner ladies prefer the slotted style in freestyle as it helps them to orientate themselves as they have to do a lot of spinning. M

3rd-June-2007, 02:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Andy McGregor Commercial Operator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sussex by the Sea Posts: 7,362 Status: Very, very annoyed. Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 1633	Re: Rotation V Slot IMHO, there are moves that are slotted and there are moves where the partners walk around each other in circular moves. In my opinion, most of the real circular moves are danced with the partners quite close together so don't take up much space. Most of the slotted moves are danced in an open hand-hold with the partners further apart. To dance slotted moves in a circular fashion takes up much more space on the dance floor. This is why I think that the dancers who dance slotted moves in a circular fashion should be shot, at the very least castrated: they are selfish as they take up about 3 times as much space on the dance floor as a person who knows the difference between a slotted and circular move. Plus, dancing slotted moves in a circular fashion is so messy and imprecise, you have little idea where you're leading your partner resulting in an increase in collisions and injuries. So, why are these selfish and dangerous dancers getting their slotted and circular moves confused? They are not really to blame, they are badly served by their teachers. It's probably their teachers who should be shot or castrated, the bad dancers themselves deserve our sympathy - although a Tazer shot once in a while would help speed their re-education __________________ “Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius-and a lot of courage-to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein

3rd-June-2007, 05:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
paul stevo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: nottingham Posts: 19 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 12	Re: Rotation V Slot We never teacher a travelling return, as we think it`s the biggest reason for people not returning on the spot. It seems in freestyle people don`t do either a return or a travelling return...they do a mixture of the 2 with the follower ending up side on to the leader.

4th-June-2007, 04:59 AM	#17 (permalink)
NZ Monkey Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 672 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 499	Re: Rotation V Slot I'm definitely a fan of the slotted style myself and I'm having a hard time thinking of a move that requires rotation permanently off the original slot. You can both leave the slot during a rotating part of a move but I prefer finishing back in the same slot. Like Mary, I think a slotted style looks and feels more dynamic. The biggest reason I've found for the dance to start rotating is the follower stepping forward immediately after going back. If I haven't led anything yet then I'm in her way at this point and she steps to my right automatically. Sometimes if I have led something and am out of her way she will step to the right of where I was anyway. It's just simple anticipation that does it and it's understandable when 98% of the guys they dance with will pull their partner back into something immediately after every move, and never get out of their partners way to do it. Don't worry Mary - you don't anticipate I know a slotted style is prefered by most if not all of the teachers here in Auckland but it's rarely actually mentioned by them in classes so the student uptake on it is limited. I think CMJ Australia teach a slotted style explicitly from day one so it'd be interesting to hear what one of their dances has to say on the rotation issue.....

4th-June-2007, 09:17 AM	#18 (permalink)
Groovemeister Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: St. Neots Posts: 153 Status: No Status Rep Power: 0 Rep.: 57	Re: Rotation V Slot Your obviously discussing the merits of "dancing" in the slot or rotating. I come from a different way of thinking as I change my style depending on 1) The music style 2) If I just want to dance rather than think about what I am doing. 3) The speed of the music 4) The partner Also add into this the types of moves I fancy doing. As Andy has said there are some MJ moves that just don't lend themeselves to slotted dancing. If I want to incorporate them I change and rotate.