Intermediate/Advanced Spinning

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Chicklet
OK here's a debate point - ref the intermediate assessment

Is the ability to do a double spin necessary to be an "advanced" dancer? - discuss.......

If the answer to that is "Yes", then I will have to rate myself a beginner! Well, at least up until Blackpool this year when my then partner kinda forced me to learn to do doubles - he's heavily into spinning (I should have known - he's from NZ! ) Hence I can now spin about as well as the average woman. I refer of course to free-spins. I can go on forever if the spins are assisted/guided by my partner but I think that isn't what the NZ assessment is referring to .

My view therefore (for obviously selfish reasons ), is that the ability to do a double spin is not necessary in order to be classed an "Advanced" dancer. Just purely my own personal opinion of course. Far be it for me to tell the Ceroc authorities in NZ that they are wrong ..........

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
So. I'm just one of the lucky ones then, eh David!!

Yes - you and Gus

[Chris]

Originally posted by spindr
[b]Hmmm, do you mean a double-time spin, i.e. two revolutions in the space of one modern jive count (2 musical beats)

There's a move I do sometimes called a double assisted spin drop: the ladies seem to love it but I try to check that she's keen before trying it and also that she can spin quite well unassisted otherwise it doesn't really work. (She may be an advanced dancer and much more advanced than me, but she needs to know how to spin.)

It involves a specific hand hold - from a cup or ordinary grip, moving so that my hand has the middle two fingers stiff and pointing downward (other fingers and thumb pulled back out of the way). The lady's hand revolves around it without holding on, as if around a spindle. Her elbow is raised, making a sort of unicorn shape (otherwise it results in 'stirring'). I make sure her weight's on her left foot after first move opened out position, with plenty of space for her to turn, and draw two very rapid haloes above her head. The haloes and the spinning need to be quite precise. After a double assisted spin in one beat, I block right shoulder to right shoulder to take the lady into a seducer type drop. With one or two ladies that know the move and we've done it often, we sometimes do the double spin and drop in a single beat. For it to be comfortable and effortless, it needs an accurate 'frame', the right degree of tension, so there's good communication through the whole body just using the tiniest of movement.

(For safety sake, if you want to try it, I'd suggest practicing off the dance floor, get comfortable with the spin and block first, then add the drop)

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. This is the definition I use now:
- a spin is when the lady spins on one foot
- a freespin is when she spins on one foot, without holding the mans hand.
- a turn is when she takes several small steps to get round.

Ah: I was referring to a spin as where you propell the lady: a free-spin in your vocabulary.
I can lead multiple 'spins' without too much difficulty, and multiple turns, but it's the multiple freespins...
I think that a lot has to do with your standard 'hold': I tend to just use my first two fingers in most leads, reverting to the whole hand for 'ballroom' grips or mit's. I think that in leading a lady into spins I drop to just the index finger and let the lady's use that to rotate around.

[Paul F]

On the point of spinning , take a look at cerocaustralias website - the 'shop'

http://www.cerocaustralia.com.au/shop.asp

and click on the 'snippet' from the Advanced Moves and Dips 1 video.

I have never ever seen a lady spin as smoothly or as professionally as the girl who is on that video clip. She must do 4 or 5 spins and is able to control it with such ease. She even rotates to be on the right side of the guy


It really is something to see but it may take a while to download if you havn't got 512 broadband +

[Jon]

We had a couple of Australian ladies at Chalton last week and both were very good at spining, doubles and triples. Think they must teach spinning over there more than here. What do the UK ladies do better than the Ausies then? Or prehaps we shouldn't go there

[Chris]

Originally posted by Jon
We had a couple of Australian ladies at Chalton last week and both were very good at spining, doubles and triples. Think they must teach spinning over there more than here. What do the UK ladies do better than the Ausies then? Or prehaps we shouldn't go there

I would imagine Oz is the same as NZ - spinning is part of the warm-up routine before every class. (Ozzie dancers on the forum confirm this?) Warm ups and spinning in time to music (ie step, prepare, spin! step, prepare, spin!) - single spins before beginners classes, doubles before intermediate classes; can't remember if there's triples before advanced classes but with that sort of regular night I reckon even I would get better at spinning. I've also wondered if it doesn't maybe helps people keep time who otherwise 'can't hear the beat'.

Over here, after watching the NZ (g,d & r) champs video I think I'd have to contest that British ladies have more musical interpretation, as is often said. But what I think they do better is add a lot more personality and much less reliance on a host of very specific leads. Whilst I agree with Gus that it's all too easy to emphasis the differences and that it's part of a single dance 'family', there are also enough differences to make it interesting!

But as Jon said, perhaps we shouldn't go there (but there again, I can be obtusely slow at taking well-meaning hints )

Chris
'solve et coagula'

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
What do the UK ladies do better than the Ausies then? Or prehaps we shouldn't go there

Maybe its too easy to generalise but having seen the Auusies, Kiwis and Btits I would have to say that the best of all can look equally good but in different ways .... and the rest look just as good also ..... though I have to say that, personally, I seem to feel there is a stronger choreographed element to our Southern friends dancing style.

[Paul F]

I think im probably a one off for this but I have to say that , IMHO, a lady spinning is the most gracious and spectacular part of any routine.

I watched another cabaret from Nicky Haslem in Greenwich last night. Nicky's and Roberts first cabaret consisted of , largely, intermediate moves (however you want to classify them) with extra turns/spins etc.

This makes it sound 'normal'. Obviously it wasnt. The flawless spinning and floorcraft shown by both nicky and roberts made it a joy to watch.

Aerials, deep dips and drops are nice but an advanced spinning technique, for me is the single most prominent part of a dance.

(sorry if this has been said elsewhere :sorry )

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Paul F


(sorry if this has been said elsewhere :sorry )

Don't apologise for making a good point, repeated or not I agree with you, spinning looks great when done right and at the right time. One of the best spinners ive ever seen was a Ceroc girl i saw dancing with Obi in Edinburgh a few years ago ... a 5 ft bubbly blonde (best description i can think of ) who would spin ten times in 5 seconds in perfect time..oooh. No idea who she was.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Paul F

I have never ever seen a lady spin as smoothly or as professionally as the girl who is on that video clip.

Shauna Dark. She rocks.

Originally posted by Chris

I would imagine Oz is the same as NZ - spinning is part of the warm-up routine before every class. (Ozzie dancers on the forum confirm this?)

Nope. We often do a "step footwork" warmup before intermediate class, but no spinning drills.

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

One of the best spinners ive ever seen was a Ceroc girl i saw dancing with Obi in Edinburgh a few years ago ... a 5 ft bubbly blonde (best description i can think of) who would spin ten times in 5 seconds in perfect time..oooh. No idea who she was.

It wasn't Karen Forster was it? I believe she and her partner spent some time in the UK. I just saw her again at some champs in Brisbane. She came second in DWAS with Hamish Johnstone, who's 6'4" -- it was very cute watching them dance with the height difference. I think of her as the funky pixie

[Chris]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
One of the best spinners ive ever seen was a Ceroc girl i saw dancing with Obi in Edinburgh a few years ago ... a 5 ft bubbly blonde (best description i can think of ) who would spin ten times in 5 seconds in perfect time..oooh. No idea who she was.

Well I guess you know the other bubbly blonde resident (who teaches) so it wouldn't be her? Though I don't know about ten times in five seconds (can only think or Londoners and foreigners off hand who can do that). She's a fab spinner - but really revels in challenge - got her up for a Blues dance at Cambers and amazed me pleasantly with her improvisation and interpretation!

[Amir]

From memory (having taught ceroc in nz, but this was over two year back) I would expect double spins to be done in one count. I seem to recall that the expectation in advanced classes was for triples though. You were meant to do a double in intermeddiate.

To do a double turn in two counts means you are turning very slowely, which if you are on one foot takes way more control and balance. I saw Viktor do 9 on one foot a while back, probably in the space of about two counts. Probably impossible if attempted one per count. I saw Baryshnikov do 11 and you had to count as fast as you could to keep up. (this was on a vido 'white nights'. ) He slowed down towards the end, staying perfectly on balance, which was more impressive than the ammount.

There were plenty of dancers in teh advanced classes in NZ that couldn'd do triples, however. I'm told its different now, but a lot of that assesment stuff was to set up certain expectations: It was still up to the individual, but as a teacher I could do an advanced class and say something like, 'first move with a double assisted spin exit in one count' and expect everyone to know it, and quickly teach a variation etc.

Ofcourse, there were always those that still couldn't do it, but the responsability was theirs, not the teachers. Unfortunetly the absence of standards here means that we teachers often have to cater to the lowest common denominator when teaching drops and spins etc to maintain safety.

I'm posting my opinion on the differences between nz and here on the 'lets talk about dancing' bit.

Unfortunetly the absence of standards here means that we teachers often have to cater to the lowest common denominator when teaching drops and spins etc to maintain safety.

- that'll be me then

[michael]

Mmmmmm....... was dancing with a female last night at Marcos and she was spinning wonderfully. What a buzz it gave me i have never felt that before........she spun round four times on one occassion in balance and with great style i thought........cant say i noticed whether she was wearing a thong or not...... I bow down to greater wisdom but will let you know when i come accross the thong spin

Strange how people react to spinning when it is discussed. Some hate it, others put up with it, whilst a percentage love it.

Even stranger is the reaction they have themselves when they spin. The dizziness can be a complete nightmare to some and the cures like "spotting" seems to work for some but not for others.

As a guy just learning i feel i should be able to spin reasonable in the future though not as well as a female. Trouble is i dont see a future if i am going to get dizzy? and trying to spot makes me even worse. Throw me up in the air toss me side to side and no effect, but go on a waltzer oh boy feel awful.....
I rarely watch dancers so will finally be able to sit and watch at Musselburgh. I cant say i have noticed guys spinning as in "wow that was a nice double spin" in any of the classes in Glasgow or Edinburgh!! I think the Taxi chap Brian (Edinburgh) done a few and it looked great but that is all.

Just wondered if practice cures the dizziness???? as presently i have this mindset that suggests otherwise?? Should we just leave that to the ladies or what......Any comments

Sorry but one last curious thing....... do guys get dizzy much easier than females

[michael]

Ah just goes to show what others are missing. I looked back to other threads and noticed DS had an attachment explaining why we get dizzy when we spin. See the Forum DOES have its uses

[Lene]

Originally Posted by Gadget

How on earth do you lead a double time spin? Shove the lady faster and hope she gets it? But for those that do double/tripple... spins, how do you lead them into a single spin? bearly lead them and hope they get it?
Personally, I leave it up to the lady; if they find enough momentum in my lead, then they can go for it.
As long as I'm not standing for the next ten beats tapping my toe, waiting for them to finish.

Does it count if you get dizzy and almost fall over after you do one?

Most ladies like spinning, because it looks good and is fun. When you dance with an advance dancer, you can easy lead 2-3 spins in one go as long at you give them speed and hold a good leading position. Which mean your hand you are spinning with should be in level with your forehead.


Free spinning is a different matters, again it depends how much strength you put in your lead for making a lady spin. If you give little strength she will spin once. More strength you can expect 2-3 spins. Some ladies travel a bit when they do free spins, you just have to follow them, so they don’t bounce into some one.
Have fun spinning the ladies….

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Lene

Most ladies like spinning, because it looks good and is fun. When you dance with an advance dancer, you can easy lead 2-3 spins in one go as long at you give them speed and hold a good leading position. Which mean your hand you are spinning with should be in level with your forehead.

I can (now) lead double/tripple/... turns and even to some degree dictate the speed. I have found that this is more to do with the lead into the turn rather than the turn it's self.

Free spinning is a different matters, again it depends how much strength you put in your lead for making a lady spin.

Nope. Have to dissagree: The lead should only really be indicative of a spin, and perhaps the timeing of it if it's a slow spin. "Strength" of lead should never come into it.
Sure, if a lady braces against a barrier in preperation for a spin, I will equal the preasure to give her a grounding - but she pushes off and turns however many (many, many,..) times she thinks fit to. Some ladies only need the indication and away they go.
If you use 'strength' in the lead for a spin, you are more likley to throw the lady off-ballance, or if she's good enough to maintain ballance, she will travel.

{That post was made a while ago, and I think that the question was more to point out that you can't/shouldn't "throw" a lady into a spin.
PS: Welcome to the Forum }

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Lene

Most ladies like spinning, because it looks good and is fun. When you dance with an advance dancer, you can easy lead 2-3 spins in one go as long at you give them speed and hold a good leading position. Which mean your hand you are spinning with should be in level with your forehead.


Free spinning is a different matters, again it depends how much strength you put in your lead for making a lady spin. If you give little strength she will spin once. More strength you can expect 2-3 spins. Some ladies travel a bit when they do free spins, you just have to follow them, so they don’t bounce into some one.
Have fun spinning the ladies….

Hi Lene - enjoyed your post, and agree that spinning (or trying to) is great fun. There are a couple of things points where I'd differ from your post though -

1. For a guy turning a lady (or giving an assisted spin) - the height of their hand should be relevant to the lady, surely, not to their own forehead. Esp. if there's a big height difference?

Marc always suggests a guy's hand should be a few inches higher than the lady's head, but more in line with her nose, not over the centre of her head.

2. Strangely, while a steady lead is invaluable for free spins, the strength of a guy's push leading a lady into a spin has absolutely no relevance to how many spins I do. In fact, if a guy pushes harder, I'm more likely to just manage one spin before I fall off balance. And a light push can sometimes lead to 3 or 4 spins.

I'm more likely to try multiple spins if it 'feels right' according to the phrasing or emphasis of the music. Regardless of the lead. Or perhaps if a guy is dancing too fast I'll spin twice to take up more time so that I can catch on the following beat.

And of course, some floors are just so slippery and made for spinning that you can't resist the temptation to 'go for it' - just for the fun of it and to see if you can.
Rachel

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Nope. Have to dissagree: The lead should only really be indicative of a spin, and perhaps the timeing of it if it's a slow spin. "Strength" of lead should never come into it.
Sure, if a lady braces against a barrier in preperation for a spin, I will equal the preasure to give her a grounding - but she pushes off and turns however many (many, many,..) times she thinks fit to. Some ladies only need the indication and away they go.
If you use 'strength' in the lead for a spin, you are more likley to throw the lady off-ballance, or if she's good enough to maintain ballance, she will travel.

{That post was made a while ago, and I think that the question was more to point out that you can't/shouldn't "throw" a lady into a spin.
PS: Welcome to the Forum }

Sorry Gadget - didn't notice you'd already posted this - needless to say, I absolutely agree!!
R x