Intermediate/Advanced Spinning

[Chicklet]

OK here's a debate point - ref the intermediate assessment

Is the ability to do a double spin necessary to be an "advanced" dancer? - discuss.......

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chicklet
OK here's a debate point - ref the intermediate assessment

Is the ability to do a double spin necessary to be an "advanced" dancer? - discuss.......

It depends on how you define "advanced dancer". If we define "advanced dancer" as "able to cope with NZ advanced class" (which presumably has a lot of double spins), then the question is easy.

There are certainly much better definitions of "advanced dancer", but I think all the NZ folks are trying to do is make sure their advanced class flows smoothly.

On the other hand, my fuzzy idea of advanced dancers includes being very balanced and stable in spins, in which case doing doubles probably isn't much of an issue for them.

[spindr]

Hmmm, do you mean a double-time spin, i.e. two revolutions in the space of one modern jive count (2 musical beats) -- rather than two consecutive single spins in the space of two modern jive counts (4 musical beats).

If you mean a double-time spin, nice to be able to do / lead / follow -- but not a necessity. [BTW: I really to do like these]

Consecutive single spins -- then, yes I think you should be able to lead/follow those.

However, what I think you should be able to do at some point after beginner classes, is to be able to to a single turn / spin in one modern jive count (2 musical beats) on the spot *and only then* step back, when led to do so. [I was amazed recently when chatting to one of the local teachers that she didn't actually know how to spin on the spot -- and had to keep "falling back" to finish the spin off and recover her balance]

It's quite hard as a leader to lead a turn on the spot, e.g. with Rr hands -- and then lead a Rr comb *on the next beat* without the follower stepping back, or trying to do another turn.

A lot of the single count turn moves seem to have lost their popularity (or have been slowed down) c.f. butterfly, corkscrew, swizzlestick, spring-lock. So I guess people aren't quite so used to leading / following them.

Neil.

P.S. Anyone know a good chiropractor in Hampshire/Berkshire

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by spindr
Hmmm, do you mean a double-time spin, i.e. two revolutions in the space of one modern jive count (2 musical beats) -- rather than two consecutive single spins in the space of two modern jive counts (4 musical beats).

Was "quoting" from the NZ assessment requirements and assuming they meant a double time spin - and I completely agree - I love to see them!!

Reason I picked this one for further discussion is that, as far as I can tell, part of the reason for having certain things assessed is because other moves designated as "advanced" will be more difficult versions of moves ie with bells and whistles and particular footwork etc and it kinda makes sense that it's good for the teacher to know that the class can do the simpler move before trying learn to embellish it....don't flame me and say it's up to the individual, you'll see what I mean....but you can't - or can you?? - build on a spin in the same way - it's kinda stand alone isn't it?
Is there anything "advanced" that one wouldn't be able to do because they couldn't do a double spin??

That said, I do like Gary (??)s comment about double spins not being a problem for advanced dancers, which suggests that by the time they can do all the other stuff they can probably do this.

Which is probably true but I do sooo feel for the poor person who just can't get it and really really wants to be advanced.....guess it reminds me too much of the trauma I had at 8 years old to get my BAGA badge 1 when I was a complete star on the floor (yeah right) could do everything but the lengthways vault...ramble ramble...

C

[Gadget]

Originally posted by spindr
It's quite hard as a leader to lead a turn on the spot, e.g. with Rr hands -- and then lead a Rr comb *on the next beat* without the follower stepping back, or trying to do another turn.

Franck has also said that he finds the comb one of the more difficult moves to lead a beginner through properly; I'm beginning to think I must be doing somthing wrong
I think you need to get the off-hand hip-block right for it to go smoothly.

Originally posted by Chicklet
Is the ability to do a double spin necessary to be an "advanced" dancer?

"Spin" as in - no contact with the man during the turn? I don't think that double spins would be a requirement. But the ability to spin to match the music I would say is: It's one of my pet dislikes when I spin a lady to a slower song and she catches on the half-beat - I have to insert an aquard one and a half beat move {or preperation} to get back with the flow.

[PeterL]

are we talking followers here, or should a lead also be able to do a double spin before they can class themselves as advanced?

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by PeterL
are we talking followers here, or should a lead also be able to do a double spin before they can class themselves as advanced?

think the NZ assessment thingy was talking about both!

[spindr]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Was "quoting" from the NZ assessment requirements and assuming they meant a double time spin - and I completely agree - I love to see them!!

But how often do you see guys dance them in freestyle ?

Reason I picked this one for further discussion is that, as far as I can tell,
... a spin ... - it's kinda stand alone isn't it?
Is there anything "advanced" that one wouldn't be able to do because they couldn't do a double spin??

You're absolutely right with a "freespin" you're going to be completely disconnected and won't actually affect your partner as such -- of course you get the same effect by releasing hands and just doing a whole number revolutions less (or even just standing still).

I guess that the closest thing I can suggest are things like overturned free-spins (with taking hold part-way through the spin), e.g. spin 360 degrees catch Rl hands and spin a further 180 degrees to end up wrapped into the hands and backing your partner -- of course you could have simply done a 180 degree rotation (with hold). Same effect with a man-spin turning 360 + 180, or just turning 180?
I know which looks more interesting.

I suppose the intent is that being able to do a double spin means that your single spins and turns should be really snappy. Hence, lasso moves should be smooth, etc., etc.

Neil.

P.S. now I think about it there is a move that's often much easier to do after a double spin -- called the pick yourself up off of the floor I believe it's common to many dance styles.

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Chicklet
think the NZ assessment thingy was talking about both!

well that settles it then.

I will always be a begginer

[DavidB]

Originally posted by spindr
But how often do you see guys dance them in freestyle

With one or two exceptions, I rarely lead double time spins. I will lead free spins (ie not holding onto the lady's hand) and give her the option. And I am more likely to lead double spins to slower music. The exceptions are two ladies I know who love spinning, and asked me to lead more spins.

I have seen one lady who seems to enjoy spinning as fast as she can at every opportunity. The problem is that she can't do it without travelling. It is good practice dancing with her, as you are constantly thinking of ways of stopping her spinning so she doesn't keep bouncing into people.

Continuous single time spins I do lead, and virtually every lady can follow, including most beginners. So I have a feeling the NZ assessment means double time spins.

Originally posted by PeterL
or should a lead also be able to do a double spin before they can class themselves as advanced?

Looks like I'm joining Steve as a beginner!

David

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by spindr
But how often do you see guys dance them in freestyle ?

Every time Brady takes the floor!!!!! - Don't think he always stops at two these days though, flash bugger!!Very impressive to see!


I suppose the intent is that being able to do a double spin means that your single spins and turns should be really snappy. Hence, lasso moves should be smooth, etc., etc.

yup , know what you mean, a well executed lasso "spin" much nicer to see than my kind of sloppy one!


P.S. now I think about it there is a move that's often much easier to do after a double spin -- called the pick yourself up off of the floor I believe it's common to many dance styles. [/quote]

been close but never quite had to remember this move yet!!!


Further adventures in spinning - was watching some Salsa dancers on Saturday night where the girl was "spinning" while the guy held her hand above her head and led her in the spin incredibly fast and for 5 or 6 revolutions on the spot. She also did the really groovy headback thing to make a different shape...racking my brain from Blackpool and Hammersmith but can't picture it....do we bring this "spin" (that obviously requires fantastic frame) into modern jive ever??

Should we???


C

[Grant]

Originally posted by Chicklet

[the girl was "spinning" while the guy held her hand above her head and led her in the spin incredibly fast and for 5 or 6 revolutions on the spot. She also did the really groovy headback thing ....do we bring this "spin" (that obviously requires fantastic frame) into modern jive ever??

she did look absolutely fantastic, although i thought it was ballroom style latin american rather than salsa
as to whether you should bring this into modern jive...
wouldn't you if you could?

Grant

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Grant
she did look absolutely fantastic, although i thought it was ballroom style latin american rather than salsa
as to whether you should bring this into modern jive...
wouldn't you if you could?

Grant

could well have been ballroom latin Grant, very polished whatever it was eh?

and would I do it given half a chance and a smidgen of ability - absolutely!!!

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
With one or two exceptions, I rarely lead double time spins.

How on earth do you lead a double time spin? Shove the lady faster and hope she gets it? But for those that do double/tripple... spins, how do you lead them into a single spin? bearly lead them and hope they get it?
Personally, I leave it up to the lady; if they find enough momentum in my lead, then they can go for it.
As long as I'm not standing for the next ten beats tapping my toe, waiting for them to finish.

Looks like I'm joining Steve as a beginner!

Does it count if you get dizzy and almost fall over after you do one?

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gadget
Does it count if you get dizzy and almost fall over after you do one?

Have you ever tried "spotting"?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Aleks
Have you ever tried "spotting"?

With years of a miss-spent youth head-banging and moshing, you would think that a little 'head whip' would be no problem. But alas...

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gadget
With years of a miss-spent youth head-banging and moshing, you would think that a little 'head whip' would be no problem. But alas...

I did moshing tooo.....

Some of that "eye contact" people get when they dance with me is a reference point for my spins..........but not always

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
How on earth do you lead a double time spin? Shove the lady faster and hope she gets it? But for those that do double/tripple... spins, how do you lead them into a single spin? barely lead them and hope they get it?

I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. This is the definition I use now:
- a spin is when the lady spins on one foot
- a freespin is when she spins on one foot, without holding the mans hand.
- a turn is when she takes several small steps to get round.

(I know other people call a turn when you hold the hand, and a spin when you don't. So there can be some confusion.)

The lead I use for a multiple spin is quite subtle. I try not to 'crank' the lady round - I try to keep my wrist still and draw a small circle with my fingers. (With some ladies I can just use a flat hand - as long as I keep it above their head they keep spinning. But this does not work for everyone, and even when it works it doesn't always result in spins. All I'm doing is holding her hand - it is up to the lady whether or not she spins.)

To lead a double time spin, I would use a bit more energy in the prep, and start the first spin a bit quicker. I'm trying to accelerate through the process of starting her spin. If I feel that the lady has started turning quickly enough, I would continue into the next spin. Otherwise I'd just leave it as a single spin. It is important to control the exit to a double time spin - the lady has a lot more momentum, so you need to provide a good support in case she needs it.

To lead a double time freespin is far harder. All you can do is give the extra energy in the prep, and leave it up to her. I do not try to push her round harder or quicker - all I'd do is push her over. If I see her do multiple spins, I'll probably give her more chance later in the dance, and lead more spinning variations as well.

And to make sure you get a single freespin, you do as you suggest - give her very little energy in the prep. You can also slow down the actual 'push' into the spin, and be very proactive in catching her hand (ie catch her shoulder, and slide down to her hand.)

As long as I'm not standing for the next ten beats tapping my toe, waiting for them to finish.

Ah - you get this as well. I've tried combing my hair, checking my watch, asking someone else to dance, etc. I once saw someone pull a book out of their pocket and start reading.

Does it count if you get dizzy and almost fall over after you do one?

No - if you stay upright it makes you an expert.

Originally posted by Aleks
Have you ever tried "spotting"?

You mean picking a spot on the floor to hit?

David

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DavidB
With one or two exceptions, I rarely lead double time spins.

So. I'm just one of the lucky ones then, eh David!!

Steve