Ceroc Competitions - in Oz

[Thetruth]

I am confused as to what steps are required in ceroc footwork for competitions. The competitions held in Australia by the two major companies in Sydney do not list the footwork in the competition rules. This is confusing as I have done Dancesport and the rules are clear on all styles as to the footwork and timing required. Plus the list of moves allowed for each level. Ceroc in Aust does not do this for their competition rules and only states elements of other styles. Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves.
So can I ask what are the ceroc rules in Scottish competitions regarding footwork etc?

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I am confused as to what steps are required in ceroc footwork for competitions. The competitions held in Australia by the two major companies in Sydney do not list the footwork in the competition rules. This is confusing as I have done Dancesport and the rules are clear on all styles as to the footwork and timing required. Plus the list of moves allowed for each level. Ceroc in Aust does not do this for their competition rules and only states elements of other styles. Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves.

the footwork you have described is step footwork (for guys) as taught by CMJ. Can’t say I’ve ever come across comp for MJ rules that specifiy what is MJ footwork – it has always been more a case of not x, y, z dance foot work to be done - when there is a rule regarding the percentage of the dance must be MJ

As to WCS dancers doing better than standard ceroc dancers in Comps in Aus – not sure that is true – as Perth keep taking home a swag of trophies and as far as I know there isn’t much WCS there.

Originally Posted by Thetruth

So can I ask what are the ceroc rules in Scottish competitions regarding footwork etc?

Foot work in ceroc in the UK?!?!?! It’s not taught so how could it be specified for comps???

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method.

Originally Posted by Yliander

Foot work in ceroc in the UK?!?!?!

Oh no!

Here we go again!

[pjfrad]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

Currently there seems to be a push towards WCS as a similiar style to ceroc. And thus in competitions WCS dancers seem to fair better than the standard ceroc dancer.
I was of the understanding that advanced footwork in ceroc was right foot back, left foot back, right foot forward, left foot forward, and the concertina lead method. Not slot dancing as in WCS moves.

Whilst WCS is definitely having an influence on the MJ scene, I don't think that WCS style does better in Ceroc comps in Australia than other styles, one particular couple who has a latin(ish) style has done very well for many years.

Sometimes it can look West Coast like because when dancing MJ for a competition you need to present to a front where the judges usually are. In doing so you then create what can look like a slot but doesn't really have the same underlying purpose.

You are right about the footwork taught for males however it's not a strict rule for comps and you can mix it up by doing other stuff. What they do say is that it must be recognizable for as MJ and not another style so if you throw in a few tripple steps, no big deal, if you break out into WCS footwork and moves you will be marked down.

Peter

[Thetruth]

Originally Posted by Yliander

it has always been more a case of not x, y, z dance foot work to be done - when there is a rule regarding the percentage of the dance must be MJ

SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

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Originally Posted by Thetruth

SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

Here in lies the problem as most dance styles can be defined by their footwork but MJ is defined more by its lack of footwork and thus has a bit of an identity problem in my mind. I love MJ but I too always find it hard to quickly sum up its soul!

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

SO what is MJ dance? Can someone explain the style? MJ is confusing compared to other established styles regarding style and footwork. So what is it?

When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.

[Thetruth]

Originally Posted by CJ

When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.

So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest. The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level.
I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork. Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest.

no more so than in the UK – the rules for footwork in the UK are just as vague for competitions.

As to popularity contest if you have couples that are all equally technically competent – then of course the judging is going to become subjective as to what an individual judge prefers presentation/style wise.

Originally Posted by Thetruth

The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level.

quality over quantity Masters/Champions in Aus isn’t a category you just choose to enter, most comps require 2/3 places at Advanced to move up to this level. I know of 2 couples that have previously competed at Melbourne who didn’t this year due to non dance related reasons… Also when a dance partnership splits up at that level it is not always easy to find new partners as the new partnership will be required to compete at Masters even if the new partner is not required to compete at that level – it’s a daunting prospect

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork.

well that is your choice – one of the difficult things about competing in MJ is that the rules will vary wildly between comps in what is allowed at various levels. As to the obscure nature of rules regarding footwork – well the foot work in MJ is not as prescribed as in ballroom – which is one of it’s appeals for many dancers. My experience has been that in Aus some comp rules state that the dance danced must be a min % of MJ usually about 70-80% in the UK I have yet to encounter any rules of that nature – but then again footwork in the UK is even vaguer than in Aus

Originally Posted by Thetruth

Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

Competitions in all sports and all countries can be seen to be very political. People disappear from the comp circuit for all sorts of reasons, partnerships dissolve, work commitments, family commitments. As to who should place and who shouldn’t – well everyone has their opinion and to be honest I don’t always understand why a couple I thought should have at least placed didn’t and a couple that I barely notice did…. But then again maybe I missed a mistake or didn’t see some fabulous stuff

[pjfrad]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

So if I enter a ceroc competition I just move as described above? It seems very loosely based for competition and would be left to a judges individual interpretation on how ceroc should be danced. That is why it seems more like a popularity contest in Australia than a dance style contest.

I think that this can make it for a more interesting competition, it becomes less about who has the correct step or arm angle or other technical aspect and more about who can make the dance look good. I have watched ballroom competitions and whilst I'm sure the dancers are excellent and executing perfect technique I often think it looks horrible (just my opinion). This is also not to say that I think technique is unimportant. I believe that without good technique it's difficult to make the dance look good, I just don't think the technique has to be restrictive.

As to a popularity contest, I don't really think so, I've seen comps where the favorites don't place and where an unknown might. At the end of the day (as with any judged sport) it comes down to who the judges liked on the day. Also with any sport you generally get some people who are at the top and win a lot, this is not necessarily because they are more popular, it might just be that they are better.

Originally Posted by Thetruth

The numbers for the masters level is down drastically on previous years. Only 4 couples competed in the masters level at the Australian Victorian champs in July 07. I think the lack of rules may be causing less participation as dancers advance to the masters level.

In Australia masters/champions is not a category you can just enter, it's based on previous results at competitions, the rules vary but you usually have to have won an advanced category or two to get there.

I know of two couple who missed the vic champs this year, me being one of them, for justified reasons, i.e. I moved to the UK. Also the proximity of the champs to the Ceroc and Modern Jive champs this year may have had an impact. And I'm sure there were lots of other personal reasons for people competing / not competing. If I remember correctly masters was quite a big category at the Vic champs the previous year.

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling. I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork.

This sound more like personal preference than anything else. You like strict rules about footwork, timing, style, etc... some people don't.

Originally Posted by Thetruth

Plus it can be very political. A couple in Vic at the Brisbane comp of 2006 have disappeared from the ceroc competition circuit. I believe because they were disappointed in being overlook continually. I, believe in Brisbane they should have placed 2nd or at the least 3rd. But did not place at all. I hope they are still dancing as they were developing a wonderful masculine/feminine style.....the guys name is Allan not sure of his partners name though.

I think after every champs I have been to, regardless of the results, rules, competitors or winners, somebody has always said it's about politics and it's usually those who don't get the result they want or expect (not necessarily competitors).

I was good friends with the couple you are talking about and really admired their dancing, and whilst I don't know their reasons for not competing, they are a perfect example of a couple who continually put in the effort and worked on their dancing and styling. I think that you may have liked them and thought should have placed because you like dancesport, and they had a latin-ish style. I have known a few people in MJ who think the latin styling should be more successful at MJ comps than it is because they think the techniques involved in moving and shaping the body should be rewarded, however at the end of the day you are not competing latin, your competing MJ.

Peter

[Tessalicious]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I actually have little interest in competing in ceroc due to the obscure nature of the rules regarding style and footwork.

Just out of interest then, if you're not interested in competing why are you asking about the footwork for comps? Were you interested until we confirmed your suspicion, just generally trying to find out what Ceroc competitions are about from a spectator's point of view, or looking to compare with your own preferred dances? I'm not complaining about your post, just curious about the motivation behind the question.

I started with ceroc - 3 yrs then took to Latin for 3 yrs competing in Dancesport now Tango and developing a style called cabaret. Combining the dance styles learnt when freestyling.

I'm also interested in your new style 'cabaret'. Assuming you mean not a choreographed cabaret but a style of dance, what would you say the difference is between this style you are developing and Ceroc/MJ danced really well at the Open level?

After all, as most people who've watched the UK top couples (Simon and Nicole, Phil and Yuko, Amir and Cat to name but a few) could tell you, their dancing usually incorporates elements of related styles such as WCS, cha-cha, salsa, lindy, street and tango. I'm curious to know what you're doing that manages to incorporate these dance styles without having to use the relaxed technical framework of MJ.

[Thetruth]

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

Just out of interest then, if you're not interested in competing why are you asking about the footwork for comps? Were you interested until we confirmed your suspicion, just generally trying to find out what Ceroc competitions are about from a spectator's point of view, or looking to compare with your own preferred dances? I'm not complaining about your post, just curious about the motivation behind the question.
I'm also interested in your new style 'cabaret'. Assuming you mean not a choreographed cabaret but a style of dance, what would you say the difference is between this style you are developing and Ceroc/MJ danced really well at the Open level?

After all, as most people who've watched the UK top couples (Simon and Nicole, Phil and Yuko, Amir and Cat to name but a few) could tell you, their dancing usually incorporates elements of related styles such as WCS, cha-cha, salsa, lindy, street and tango. I'm curious to know what you're doing that manages to incorporate these dance styles without having to use the relaxed technical framework of MJ.

I was very interested in competing but after noting the past two major ceroc competitions in Aust did not state the rules clearly ie., footwork, style (still unsure as to the ceroc style although it would seem relaxed without any framework and little regard for lines (with the frame). Shoulders not straight nor arms displaying little movement (when compared to other styles). Footwork is optional? But I keep hearing the ceroc style must be shown throughout x percentage of the dance. So if this is to be done then footwork should be clarified.
The cabaret style is one that incorporates funk, hip hop elements, latin and ballroom styling, plus tango. The posture is akin to latin and ballroom. The arms are latin and funk styling. Footwork using Latin and Hip Hop, American jive kicks. Tango style frame for leading when in arm hold with follow. The dance is very vibrant in energy, masculine/feminine and groovy. It is a style that is 21st century to capture the way youth dance. When we freestyle in clubs and at parties in Aust, numerous people ask and are keen to learn the way we dance. We would like to entertain at weddings, parties, private functions etc. We currently have some dance gigs for a few private parties and the money is very good.

[Thetruth]

Originally Posted by pjfrad

*I think that this can make it for a more interesting competition, it becomes less about who has the correct step or arm angle or other technical aspect and more about who can make the dance look good. I have watched ballroom competitions and whilst I'm sure the dancers are excellent and executing perfect technique I often think it looks horrible (just my opinion).
Dancing is about technique, ceroc offers little when compared to other styles........"looking horrible" just your opinion (ceroc looks ordinary - not to have a go back and it is just my opinion). Opinions are like noses everybody has one...

*This sound more like personal preference than anything else. You like strict rules about footwork, timing, style, etc... some people don't.
But dont rules set the boundaries for competing? I mean just about every sport or dance has rules for competitors.

*however at the end of the day you are not competing latin, your competing MJ.
This is why rules and clarification of style and footwork would help ceroc.
Peter

I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork. I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.

[Thetruth]

Originally Posted by Yliander

no more so than in the UK – the rules for footwork in the UK are just as vague for competitions.

As to popularity contest if you have couples that are all equally technically competent – then of course the judging is going to become subjective as to what an individual judge prefers presentation/style wise.


quality over quantity Masters/Champions in Aus isn’t a category you just choose to enter, most comps require 2/3 places at Advanced to move up to this level. I know of 2 couples that have previously competed at Melbourne who didn’t this year due to non dance related reasons… Also when a dance partnership splits up at that level it is not always easy to find new partners as the new partnership will be required to compete at Masters even if the new partner is not required to compete at that level – it’s a daunting prospect


well that is your choice – one of the difficult things about competing in MJ is that the rules will vary wildly between comps in what is allowed at various levels. As to the obscure nature of rules regarding footwork – well the foot work in MJ is not as prescribed as in ballroom – which is one of it’s appeals for many dancers. My experience has been that in Aus some comp rules state that the dance danced must be a min % of MJ usually about 70-80% in the UK I have yet to encounter any rules of that nature – but then again footwork in the UK is even vaguer than in Aus

Competitions in all sports and all countries can be seen to be very political. People disappear from the comp circuit for all sorts of reasons, partnerships dissolve, work commitments, family commitments. As to who should place and who shouldn’t – well everyone has their opinion and to be honest I don’t always understand why a couple I thought should have at least placed didn’t and a couple that I barely notice did…. But then again maybe I missed a mistake or didn’t see some fabulous stuff

Thanks for your reply, length too and informative. My main concern is the rules relating to the ceroc style. Not having limitations in a dance style sounds great, but unfortunately, people have limitations in their physical abilities. So the ones to benefit from no limitations are the exceptional athletes, of which, are a minority in general society. So why have an unlimited dance style when the dancers themselves are limited in ability? I heard that ceroc comp rules are more like guidelines than rules. Unfortunately, this disturbs me, when thinking of a fair competition and a level playing field for all.
Thanks again for taking the time to provide your answer......

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by CJ

When asked about MJ, I answer something like:
"take the atitude of tango, the sexiness of salsa, the fun of jive and lindy, put together the best moves, then take out the footwork."

For us with a smattering of knowledge it's not an ideal description, but it seems to work for muggles.

I like, but too long. How about "partying to music"?

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

Thanks for your reply, length too and informative.

thank you

Originally Posted by Thetruth

My main concern is the rules relating to the ceroc style. Not having limitations in a dance style sounds great, but unfortunately, people have limitations in their physical abilities. So the ones to benefit from no limitations are the exceptional athletes, of which, are a minority in general society. So why have an unlimited dance style when the dancers themselves are limited in ability? I heard that ceroc comp rules are more like guidelines than rules. Unfortunately, this disturbs me, when thinking of a fair competition and a level playing field for all.

the other dances you talk about have a much longer history than MJ. It sounds to me like you are wanting MJ to be things that it isn’t – and for me a dance style that is only limited by the abilities/imaginations of the dancers is exciting – as in all things there will only be a few who reach the highest pinnacles but there is nothing to stop the rest of us muddling around on the mountain as well.

And while MJ may not have it’s self definitive footwork – it does know what it isn’t and that’s a start towards defining what it is

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Thetruth

I am not trying to stir trouble, just want to understand the rules governing ceroc in competitions. But I dont seem to be getting any information that states clear rules on footwork. I think this is important in establishing a credible dance style.

The main rules concerning footwork in Ceroc competitions:

1. You are expected to move your feet in time with the music.
2. Especially if you're a girl.
3. Depending on the category, you may not be allowed to lift both your partner's feet off the floor.
4. Ceroc is danced "on 1", with the downbeats* emphasised.
5. The rest is up to you.

If you have done Ceroc/MJ dancing for 3 years, you'll know the footwork as taught. The footwork expected in competitions is the same.

Fortunately competition rules do not make or break a dance style's credibility.



* Or is it upbeats? I can never remember.

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Originally Posted by ducasi

The main rules concerning footwork in Ceroc competitions:

1. You are expected to move your feet in time with the music.
2. Especially if you're a girl.
3. Depending on the category, you may not be allowed to lift both your partner's feet off the floor.
4. Ceroc is danced "on 1", with the downbeats* emphasised.
5. The rest is up to you.

If you have done Ceroc/MJ dancing for 3 years, you'll know the footwork as taught. The footwork expected in competitions is the same.

Fortunately competition rules do not make or break a dance style's credibility.



* Or is it upbeats? I can never remember.

I thought that Ceroc technically was danced on two but we say "and" 1 with the "and" being the 1 and the 1 really being the 2(when you count music properly).