Problems with the West Manhattan, part 12

[David Bailey]

Despite at least a year of working on this, I still can't lead it to what I'd call a satisfactory level - that is, to almost any follower (say, roughly 98%). I reckon I'm running at about 90% now, and even that's only because more followers now seem to recognise the move, rather than me leading it well.

I can do other "tricky" moves to that 98% level (cross-body leads, straightjackets, etc.), but I seem to be plateau-ing on the West Manhattan (and by extension, the Columbian and other variants).

The problem is footwork - basically, a significant part of the time, the follower just seems to assume that I'm leading a First Move, but turning my chest in a weird way

Now, I can "brute-force" lead the move, if I have to - turning the follower's chest vigorously anti-clockwise, basically. That gives a better percentage result - around the 95%+ mark - but obviously it's inelegant as hell. And worse, that approach has the danger of being mistaken for a lead into a dip - I dropped someone (literally) on Friday when she enthusiastically threw herself at the floor in just such a circumstance.

And, worse, I can't think of a good way of styling it out - of recovering from a situation where the lead is ignored - because of the footwork I'm doing in preparation to it.

Any suggestions?

[tsh]

I'd given up trying to lead this move recently - then after doing Amir's class at Southport discovered that I could lead it with reasonable (80%?) success - even though he hadn't taught it the the class (). I can't work out if the difference is my timing, or frame - but I don't think I'm using the brute-force method...

Sean

[Lory]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Any suggestions?

Verbal lead

Seriously though, as a follow, its one of those moves that does require a certain amount of experience.

IMO, you lead it very well and think the problem you're having is probably simply down to inexperienced follows not expecting it

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by Lory

Verbal lead

Runs screaming from the room

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lory

Verbal lead

Of course, that assumes the follower knows what the move is

Originally Posted by Lory

Seriously though, as a follow, its one of those moves that does require a certain amount of experience.

IMO, you lead it very well and think the problem you're having is probably simply down to inexperienced follows not expecting it

Well, it's tempting to blame poor followers, Ceroc indoctrinations, or possibly the phase of the moon.

But, see, I've got this suspicion that Amir (for example) can lead the West Man to that near-100% level, so it is possible. And as I said, every other move I've had this problem with, I've managed to work on it to where I also can lead that move to a satisfactory level.

But the WM is stumping me at the moment

I suspect I may have to just spend some time to practice it with someone at some point

[JCB]

I can't offer advice, just confirm that it is possible to lead a beginner into a West Manhattan even when she hasn't a clue what she is doing, so don't lose hope!
This was a while back, and I have only just sussed what I think happened. (saw the West Manhattan on the Jango youtube basics clip, and thought, "Oh! That's what that was!")
From a standard Manhattan, the leader raised his left hand momentarily, so I started to step forward past him, as I thought it was an under arm exit. Almost immediately the arm was lowered, and the heel of his right hand on the point of my left hip blocked my clockwise rotation, and asked for an anti-clockwise rotation. I had to turn and step back on my left foot. He continued to lead the second turn from the hip, then shifted his hand back to the shoulderblade for a couple more turns, and an exit. I know that the video shows the leader's right hand controlling the follower's rotation from the shoulderblade throughout, and I think that we might have ended up in the standard Manhattan when I didn't follow the original lead.

[timbp]

I often lead something that is based on my viewing of the Jango DVD, and I think of it as West Manhattan.
But your description doesn't match what I thought the move involves, so I wonder if I've misunderstood the DVD (or your description of the move). (Although, once I was dancing with a visitor from London, and she said to me "I didn't expect to find the West Manhattan here". So what I do is recognisable to UK followers.)

Certainly I have no problem leading my interpretation of what is shown on the Jango DVD. But I don't know if my interpretation of that DVD is what you are referring to (probably it's not, as you've never seen me do the move).

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by timbp

I often lead something that is based on my viewing of the Jango DVD, and I think of it as West Manhattan.
But your description doesn't match what I thought the move involves, so I wonder if I've misunderstood the DVD (or your description of the move).

Almost certainly the latter.

My problem-point is when I rotate the follower anti-clockwise, peparing for the sidestep-then-backstep bit of the move.

If I'm not sure of my follower, I usually do a lot of preparation, rotating the follower quite early so she has a lot of warning, so it's (much) less elegant than the equivalent linear-giro move in AT. I also do it faster than a linear-giro speed would normally dictate (double-time, effectively), so I make some use of momentum and "rebound".

Hmmm, maybe I need to dig out my Jango DVD also...

[Zuhal]

I would echo your 90% success rate with the move.

Firstly I would be a bit selective about who I lead it on but then I guess that would apply to most reasonable aware leads anyway.

Of the ten % that fail; if I think that they want to understand the move then I can freestyle them into it with a verbal ",feel the twist". I only ever have to say it once and then my percentage is up to about 98%

Zuhal

[Gav]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Despite at least a year of working on this, I still can't lead it to what I'd call a satisfactory level - that is, to almost any follower (say, roughly 98%). I reckon I'm running at about 90% now, and even that's only because more followers now seem to recognise the move, rather than me leading it well.

F.F.S! Maybe you need to not be so hard on yourself! 90% sounds pretty bloody good to me.

I remember when I could only do this with DT and a few VERY good followers, then at Southport a certain moderator showed me how to lead it properly and I went instantly to about 80% success.

[JCB]

Another thought: I find it easier to pick up on a right-handed rotational lead from the shoulder-blade if there is a slight vertical lift before the lateral cue. Sort of a "wake-up-and-pay-attention" call. No idea if this is correct, or even intentional. I automatically lift weight off my left foot when I feel this. (And I have no idea if that is the correct response either But we are off to a beginners' Jango workshop next month, so with luck, I will know better soon).

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Almost certainly the latter.

My problem-point is when I rotate the follower anti-clockwise, peparing for the sidestep-then-backstep bit of the move.

A lot of follows won't go completely parallel for the sidestep but instead stay slightly opened out, so the pivot into the backstep is stuffed.

Various thoughts

The closest moves I think are whatever the Americana is called in Ceroc (I'm pretty sure it's not Taz's Steps ) and a first move dip.

The Americana doesn't come parallel and the first move dip does a pivot in place on the sidestep rather than going back.

Have a look at the Rumba version (35 mins on the Jango dvd). Don't worry about the timing change, but you can use the idea to lead her back more to 11 o'clock than 9 o'clock.

I think the closer you are, the easier it is to lead.

As an aside it's the tango basic from step 2 to step 6 (I think) but openned out

The best solution I've found so far is to start the lead into the sidestep and if she doesn't fully come parallel, go back a step and repeat but try to lead her round slightly more; in effect it's the bluesy first move sidestep back and forth thing. When she does come parallel, then on the next one lead the west manhatten. I reckon 3 repeats of the blues move is reasonable (and follows the Rule of 3 ) followed by a west manhatten. Got it to work this way on a farily new intermediate (couple of months) who doesn't know the move

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gav

F.F.S! Maybe you need to not be so hard on yourself! 90% sounds pretty bloody good to me.

It's OK, don't get me wrong, but the hard part - the stuff that gets your technique working flawlessly - is the last 10%. I want to get it to the point where I can dismiss any mistakes as "not my fault", and I'm not there yet.

I can reasonably accept a 1-in-50 proportion of followers being just numpties, and not worry about them. That's less than 1 dance per freestyle evening, basically.

But I'm not happy with a 1-in-10 ratio, as I don't really think that 10% of followers are numpties, so there's still something lacking in my technique.

Hmmm... I was thinking about this at lunchtime, as you do, and I wonder if I'm rotating too much. Lots of times in AT, you find that what you're doing wrong is over-compensating. Maybe, instead of a 90 degree rotation at the start of the tricky part, I should try a 45-degree rotation, then a clear side step, then another 45-degree rotation...

Yes, it's worth a try, I'll give it a go at Ashtons tonight.

Originally Posted by Gav

I remember when I could only do this with DT and a few VERY good followers, then at Southport a certain moderator showed me how to lead it properly and I went instantly to about 80% success.

Hell, why didn't you tell me? I could do with someone teaching me how to lead it properly

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JCB

Another thought: I find it easier to pick up on a right-handed rotational lead from the shoulder-blade if there is a slight vertical lift before the lateral cue. Sort of a "wake-up-and-pay-attention" call.

Hmmm, sounds a bit iffy to me, like one of the dodgy ways of leading a cross.

I'm also reluctant to introduce vertical motion as that may cause confusion with a drop

Also, I'd imagine that most followers need to pay attention when dancing with me

[JCB]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Hmmm, sounds a bit iffy to me, like one of the dodgy ways of leading a cross.

That is because I am still a beginner. I don't know the correct lead, I am just relating when, as a beginner, I have been able to follow more advanced moves, like the West Manhattan, and Paso and mirrored (?) Columbians. I wouldn't presume to offer advice (insert completely non-sarcastic "eeek!" here). I just assumed that the more experienced dancers weren't causing difficulties, and hoped some input from beginners, on when we can manage to read the lead, and when we missed the boat, might help you figure out how to solve your dilemma. For example, I find the lead from the hip easy to follow, but I guess that is cheating?
I assume your elusive few percent been composed of beginners/less experienced intermediates?
The more I think about it, the more I feel it is a case of the follower's fault (Alarm! Alarm! Heresy alert! It is always the leaders fault! before you ask, I do not believe that.) After all, if the follower doesn't provide at least a rudimentary frame, what have you got to work with?
If you discover the answer, please share it.

[JiveLad]

Originally Posted by Lory

Verbal lead

......

I went to one workshop (which was great) and one move taught was complex and required the follower to do something dramatic (arms going down the side of the body as the follower goes down).

I asked the question - how to lead it, and the answer was - verbally. And the name of the move was 'Alina's Dream'. Apparently named after a famous (?) dancer who dreamt up this move one night at a weekender.

I haven't yet tried it.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JCB

That is because I am still a beginner. I don't know the correct lead, I am just relating when, as a beginner, I have been able to follow more advanced moves, like the West Manhattan, and Paso and mirrored (?) Columbians.

I'm not having a go at you (as I said, you'll know when I am ) - but I reserve the right to pooh-pooh any and all advice...

Originally Posted by JCB

For example, I find the lead from the hip easy to follow, but I guess that is cheating?

Possibly - yeah, I think so, shoving people around by various parts of their anatomy lacks couth.

Originally Posted by JCB

I assume your elusive few percent been composed of beginners/less experienced intermediates?

Yeah, well, except for Tessalicious, who I dropped on the ground a year or so back

Originally Posted by JCB

The more I think about it, the more I feel it is a case of the follower's fault (Alarm! Alarm! Heresy alert! It is always the leaders fault! before you ask, I do not believe that.) After all, if the follower doesn't provide at least a rudimentary frame, what have you got to work with?
If you discover the answer, please share it.

I will. I'll work on this till I get it to a level where I'm happy with it,

I'm stubborn I am. I spent 4-5 years getting the straightjacket to work, and 2 years getting cross-body leads to work, I've not begun to get bored yet