Ceroc Goals for leads

[DundeeDancer]

Hi, I'm on an extended plateau in my dancing at the moment and wondering what direction/approach to take next.

Therefore going to open up a few questions on the forum and see if I get any inspiration.

I've been Cerocing for about 8 months now and I can smoothly dance in freestyle all the beginners moves and a number of the more simpler intermediate moves (Wurlitzer, single pretzel, doubled handed yoyo's, arm jive swizzle into tea pot walk around etc…)

I just don't know, I feel a little lost in my dancing at the moment. I see lots of experience dancers doing many more interesting moves and seemingly having more fun than me and I just wonder how they got to that stage, what goals did they achieve along the way?

Is there a road map I can follow?

Cheers, DD

[dep]

The first eyeopener for me were comments made by two of my partners who were brave enough to criticise my technique. The fact they happened just two weeks apart and on different moves brought home the necessity to make the leads followable.
I was now determined to lead well.
And I have been chasing that goal for 30months.
Variety and complexity come later.

[martingold]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Hi, I'm on an extended plateau in my dancing at the moment and wondering what direction/approach to take next.

Therefore going to open up a few questions on the forum and see if I get any inspiration.

I've been Cerocing for about 8 months now and I can smoothly dance in freestyle all the beginners moves and a number of the more simpler intermediate moves (Wurlitzer, single pretzel, doubled handed yoyo's, arm jive swizzle into tea pot walk around etc…)

I just don't know, I feel a little lost in my dancing at the moment. I see lots of experience dancers doing many more interesting moves and seemingly having more fun than me and I just wonder how they got to that stage, what goals did they achieve along the way?

Is there a road map I can follow?

Cheers, DD

do some of francks workshops he is an amazing teacher and at camber taken me from my plateau along with some of the people i danced with in the blues room especially on monday morning

[Chef]

Originally Posted by martingold

do some of francks workshops he is an amazing teacher and at camber taken me from my plateau along with some of the people i danced with in the blues room especially on monday morning

Do ALL of Francks workshops. Then do them again. After that do them ALL again.

The first time you do them you will learn a lot, but miss some key bits of information just through information overload.

The second time you do them you will have had time to work on bringing some of what you learned into your dancing but there will be bits which you aren't getting. You will have targetted questions and areas of interest. You will start to understand a greater level of detail, and to appreciate that what seemed to be a small detail at the beginning is just as important, despite it seeming small.

Each time you revisit a technique class you come away with something more.

Go to WCS classes and to Ballroom classes. Even consider doing adult ballet classes. Don't give up your MJ. Other dances rely on a basis of technique and that technique feeds back into your MJ.

[Steven666]

For me :

Learn a new move then forget an old one. ie don't learn too many moves at the same time. Then concentrate on the fewer moves you can do better and perfect them.

Also I tried to make sure I let the new move learnt be slightly more advanced that the forgotten simpler move so I developed.

Although nowadays, I'm forgetting more moves than I'm adding...

[jemessex]

I ( as most other dancers) know where you are coming from. It happens to all of us at different stages and will continue through different levels of your learning.
For me when i was at a similar stage to you, I made the mistake of wanting to learn as many complex moves as possible thinking it would improve my dance technique and knowledge. How wrong I was....!!!
If I were at that stage again, now that the basic moves have been learnt, I would start to concentrate on connection, pre-leads and a bit of styling using the same basic moves and you have the best teacher in the business up there.
Not only will this make you think more about what you are doing but it will greatly enhance moves, good to watch, make them more enjoyable, and also make the more advanced moves seem a little easier.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I just don't know, I feel a little lost in my dancing at the moment. I see lots of experience dancers doing many more interesting moves and seemingly having more fun than me and I just wonder how they got to that stage, what goals did they achieve along the way?

Is there a road map I can follow?

Here's the path I took: Improving my dancing

Not saying it's right or wrong, but might give you some inspiration. Also have a look at some of the links on my syg - could spark something of interest.

[CheesyRobMan]

Originally Posted by jemessex

For me when i was at a similar stage to you, I made the mistake of wanting to learn as many complex moves as possible thinking it would improve my dance technique and knowledge. How wrong I was....!!!
If I were at that stage again, now that the basic moves have been learnt, I would start to concentrate on connection, pre-leads and a bit of styling using the same basic moves and you have the best teacher in the business up there.
Not only will this make you think more about what you are doing but it will greatly enhance moves, good to watch, make them more enjoyable, and also make the more advanced moves seem a little easier.

As I'm learning at the moment, it's not about doing lots of different moves, it's about doing the moves well and aligning them with the music, and having fun along the way.

[Steven666]

Nowadays, I feel the dances with fewest moves are the most complex. Something I would have never thought just I few months ago.

Though I still like moves, wheather they be real ones or not.

[johnnyman]

My first big revelation was a Nigel and Nina class concerned with Musical Interpretation and how to interpret different bits and tempos of music. This opened up the spectrum of potential.

West Coast Swing has taught me the importance of a good body, rather than an arm or hand, lead and that you will do less with your arms and more with your body, simply by turning slightly and keeping the frame of your handhold in place. Counting in phrases of 8 has also opened up the potential (WCS and MJ both take credit for giving me this idea)

The importance of using your hand just above the ladies forehead in a halo effect has helped me turn ladies better (taught by various people)

best
johnnyman

[Teesside jiver]

Few thoughts...
1/ moves that go with the music
2/ experiment with combinations
3/ play about with the moves in free style if you can find a follower that is willing to try things out with you for a few dances
4/ find out what suites individual partners - a lot of the more experinced leaders I dance with have a few diffent types of moves they try out then puts somthing together that suits the particular person they are dancing with. For example a routine with lotos of spins will suit one where as somthing with say more complex arm leads might suit another.
5/ try out diffent styling
6/ give your partner time to puts bits of styling that she likes in
7/ experiment with breaks and simple leans/dips.
8/ lead and follow and connection (you can never do enough of this)
9/ ask your partner what she fancys trying and have a go

[Martin]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Hi, I'm on an extended plateau in my dancing at the moment and wondering what direction/approach to take next.

Therefore going to open up a few questions on the forum and see if I get any inspiration.

I've been Cerocing for about 8 months now and I can smoothly dance in freestyle all the beginners moves and a number of the more simpler intermediate moves (Wurlitzer, single pretzel, doubled handed yoyo's, arm jive swizzle into tea pot walk around etc…)

I just don't know, I feel a little lost in my dancing at the moment. I see lots of experience dancers doing many more interesting moves and seemingly having more fun than me and I just wonder how they got to that stage, what goals did they achieve along the way?

Is there a road map I can follow?

Cheers, DD

Be reasured, we all get plateau's

I would go with the majority here and suggest you sign up for all the workshops on offer... and also maybe a private lesson or 2.

[ChrisB]

I'm starting to feel the same, I've only been dancing just over two months. I actually have a good memory so I probably know and can do 40 moves but mostly the same 15. They're all quite easy to lead ones, the classic and first from intermediates class and the occasional more advanced one that I particularly like. I can tell that my leading is weak for the first few nights trying those but by the third night its usually being followed. I wasn't sure what to try next, I'd like an intermediate workshop but am more interested in leading than more moves. I don't think a technique/style workshop would go amiss but these things are few and far between. Then theres also the little idea of a weekender but I'm not overly keen on that just yet. Would diving into WCS be a good idea for learning better leading, I'm quite musical so don't think I'd have many problems with the added footwork.

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Martin

I would go with the majority here and suggest you sign up for all the workshops on offer... and also maybe a private lesson or 2.

Thanks for the support Martin, I've signed up for Franck's "Lead and Follow" workshop coming up soon, so looking forward to making some progress. Private lesson's would definitely help but are they not really expensive and I've never seen them advertised in the Edinburgh area. Maybe I'll try them once I become totally obsessed with dance, I'm only badly addicted at the moment

Originally Posted by ChrisB

...similar situation to me...

You're brave thinking on WCS! Adding all that timing and footwork just scares me
You might find a few useful comments on my other thread (I need a moves toolbox, where can I get one?)

Cheers, DD

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

I'm starting to feel the same, I've only been dancing just over two months. I actually have a good memory so I probably know and can do 40 moves but mostly the same 15. They're all quite easy to lead ones, the classic and first from intermediates class and the occasional more advanced one that I particularly like. I can tell that my leading is weak for the first few nights trying those but by the third night its usually being followed.

With the same followers? Can you be sure that you've not taught them how to follow your lead rather than how to lead it? Not that I am doubting your lead ability... actually I'm telling lies: I am questioning your leading. I have been dancing a lot longer and unless you are one of the most talented people I've known, it takes a bit longer than three nights to get the lead for a move spot on. (I still haven't got leading the basic moves as I would like them)
It's relativity easy to get a follower to follow your moves. If it wasn't you wouldn't have 40 under your belt in just over two months. But just because the follower follows does not mean that you are leading them well or they are having a pleasant time following you.

I would recommend picking a favourite move and dissecting it, re-building it and working out how to lead every nuance so that the follower glides through the move like liquid and all you do is gently guide the flow.
In doing this, you will find that the same principles you have learned in this move can be carried to other moves and your whole dancing will improve as a result.

I wasn't sure what to try next, I'd like an intermediate workshop but am more interested in leading than more moves. I don't think a technique/style workshop would go amiss but these things are few and far between. Then theres also the little idea of a weekender but I'm not overly keen on that just yet.

A weekender might be the place you will find the style/technique workshops, and also pick up some inspiration. You might also want to look into something like Franck's "focused" residential weekenders - a weekend of technique based workshops and dancing where everyone is staying in the same hotel and learning the same things together.

Would diving into WCS be a good idea for learning better leading, I'm quite musical so don't think I'd have many problems with the added footwork.

If you think that's the direction you want to move towards, then try a couple of classes. The lead/follow skills used can be applied directly to/from MJ... but so can the lead/follow skills from any other dance form.
(If you consider yourself 'quite musical', then you may find that WCS tramples that out of you On the other hand you may find the 4/6 beat constructs a nice framework for you.)

[Steven666]

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's relativity easy to get a follower to follow your moves. If it wasn't you wouldn't have 40 under your belt in just over two months. But just because the follower follows does not mean that you are leading them well or they are having a pleasant time following you.

Very true. I took to blind leading again yesterday and could lead practically every move a usually lead. But I'm sure that even though the follower followed them, it would be a better experienced if I kept my eyes open.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Thanks for the support Martin, I've signed up for Franck's "Lead and Follow" workshop coming up soon, so looking forward to making some progress.

It is good to hear that you have signed up for this class. I would be really interested to hear your reaction to it afterwards.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Private lesson's would definitely help but are they not really expensive and I've never seen them advertised in the Edinburgh area.

These lessons are not usually advertised. You basically find a teacher that you think has something to offer that you want and then discuss pricing for a private lesson. Expect about £25-40 per hour plus hall hire. If you do it go along with an idea of what you want help with and a video camera so that you can see afterwards what you are doing and also capture what your teacher says to you, some of which gets lost in the information overload that is a usual private lesson.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Maybe I'll try them once I become totally obsessed with dance, I'm only badly addicted at the moment

Francks technique classes are excellant and a great thing to do. I only whish everyone had the opportunity to go to them. So think yourself very lucky to be able to get to them. You will know when it is time to have private lessons, and by that time you will also have an idea who you want them with.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

You're brave thinking on WCS! Adding all that timing and footwork just scares me
You might find a few useful comments on my other thread (I need a moves toolbox, where can I get one?)

Cheers, DD

Didn't going along to Ceroc for the first time seem scary?

Learning the basics of WCS will do you no harm whatsoever. It will teach you a great deal about timing, connection, lead and follow, musicality and frame. All these things are needed at the outset to make WCS work which is why they teach them so thoroughly at the start. You are very well served by the teachers where you are and again, you should feel lucky to have them so close to you. Some people living in Wales drive 5 hours each way to get to WCS workshops. Even if you really don't want to go all the way down the WCS path doing about 3 months of it will do you a great deal of good. The footwork patterns may seem tricky at the start but there are only about 4 patterns to learn for the majority of moves which isn't so bad really.

Whatever you do, please come back onto the forum to tell us how things are going. What things work for you, etc

[ChrisB]

Originally Posted by Gadget

With the same followers? Can you be sure that you've not taught them how to follow your lead rather than how to lead it?

Fairly sure. In the first few weeks of trying a couple of moves I would literally have most, if not all of my followers including the advanced ones completely stop, a few say "what are we doing" and so on. Last night I led them on everybody I danced with, including complete beginners and many who couldn't remember that I ever tried it before. Don't get me wrong when I say I can lead a move meaning that its being led perfectly, only that its being done well enough to become usable. I know for a fact that some of my other moves are lead better because everything flows so much nicer; very often a more advanced move will come off but feels a little clumsy, or you know there was some anticipation at play. This is indeed why I say I'm interested in learning leading and technique than moves

Originally Posted by Gadget

If you think that's the direction you want to move towards, then try a couple of classes. The lead/follow skills used can be applied directly to/from MJ... but so can the lead/follow skills from any other dance form.
(If you consider yourself 'quite musical', then you may find that WCS tramples that out of you On the other hand you may find the 4/6 beat constructs a nice framework for you.)

It can't be that bad Certainly the footwork looks very, well obvious for want of a better word; all I mean by that is that it makes perfect sense to me, I'm sure it'd be lost on many. Is there much more to it than that, besides just being a better dancer in general, musicality and so on. Most of the things they teach obviously translate, its just I feel they'll give more emphasis to how to dance rather than "where to put ones arms to perform this move". I obviously know very little about it but I just think of MJ with footwork for those who can dance

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

Last night I led them on everybody I danced with, including complete beginners and many who couldn't remember that I ever tried it before. Don't get me wrong when I say I can lead a move meaning that its being led perfectly, only that its being done well enough to become usable.

an excellent starting point, and definitely better than stopping with a confused look

I know for a fact that some of my other moves are lead better because everything flows so much nicer; very often a more advanced move will come off but feels a little clumsy, or you know there was some anticipation at play. This is indeed why I say I'm interested in learning leading and technique than moves

respect for acknowledging that some moves seem to work better and even more for trying to work out why and how to improve on it.

It can't be that bad Certainly the footwork looks very, well obvious for want of a better word; all I mean by that is that it makes perfect sense to me, I'm sure it'd be lost on many. Is there much more to it than that, besides just being a better dancer in general, musicality and so on.

Some would argue that WCS makes people a better dancer, has more musicality and so on... I'm not one of them; I think that it just puts a framework around the dancing so that the follower dosn't need to follow as much/as well and the lead dosn't have to lead as much/as well. But that's my opinion - others differ.

Most of the things they teach obviously translate, its just I feel they'll give more emphasis to how to dance rather than "where to put ones arms to perform this move". I obviously know very little about it but I just think of MJ with footwork for those who can dance

For those that think they have learned all they can from MJ; it's easier to learn a new style with a more ridged "right and wrong" than to work out where 'right and wrong' are for yourself. For people who need to be shown something outside of moves rather than looking for it themselves.... but I have a feeling my opinions on it may spark another round of 'wcs is the best'

Try it and see - form your own opinion.