Rusty intermediate needs guidance

[Agente Secreto]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I believe the advice about the follower not stepping to far away from the lead is vital in reducing jerkyness.

Agree with this bit, not sure about the rest of this post.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Sorry Chef even though I'm a fan of your posts I have to disagree with your idea that the follower should lean forward and not back on a step back.

Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

What I noticed about her style was that say after return on the step back she would take a small step away from me only one foot at most but then she would lean back with the majority of the weight on her back foot to an angle of about 45 degrees, in some cases her spare hand was nearly touching the floor!!

To be able to do that we had to balance our weight distribution through the tension in our connecting arms and the tension would have been roughly equal to 3 stones or so but as we were in sync and the tension came on and off smoothly it didn't feel jerky or sore, just felt like poetry in motion, well it did for me and the smiles on her face told me she was feeling the same.

So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you. You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I bet it looked good as well both stepping back and making a stylized V shape.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I think dancing with someone who give me less tension than it takes to pull blue tack off the wall would be similar to a having a weak hand shake with someone, very unfulfilling.

The touch in the hand can be as light as you want as long as the tension is there where it counts and that is in the follows upper arm so that she can sense when you lead her and the body immediately reacts to the signal you make with your hand. I do agree that dancing with Betty Spaghetti is unfulfilling, but a rock-like handhold doesn't guarantee the kind of arm tension that makes the dance connected.

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

Agree with this bit, not sure about the rest of this post.

I think a dance with the Cambridge dancer would convince you quicker than one of my posts.

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go.

Sorry disagree with this in a number of ways.
I think the follower should step back placing the weight on the back foot and wait for the lead to pull them forward so the follower weight comes onto the front foot, otherwise how would the lead signal the start of the next move without pulling the follower off balance.
Also when the follower steps back there is a number of different things they can do.
They can lean further back like the Cambridge lady did.
They can dig there heels so they are given space to shake there booty.
They can step off to their left causing the dance to go in a circular rotation that gets me dizzy after a while.

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you. You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.

Yes, No, Maybe…lol

No, you can gain tension by using your body weight, in this case the tension was suspension of our body weights through our arms. As long as you put the tension on smoothly and don’t overpower your partner then it works really well.

Yes, it can be like weightlifting. Have you ever watch ballet dancers, they use lots of tension (compression, suspension) in lots of different ways and to do so they need to be incredibly strong.

Maybe, I won’t say the Cambridge lady was leading me by going down into a deeper lean on the step back as I could easily of overpowered her and pulled her back up again if I wanted, I could see and sense she wanted to lean away further and a lot of the time it fitted in with the music so I happily went along with it and though it was pretty neat as it gave our dance a style of it own which I really liked.

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

The touch in the hand can be as light as you want as long as the tension is there where it counts and that is in the follows upper arm so that she can sense when you lead her and the body immediately reacts to the signal you make with your hand. I do agree that dancing with Betty Spaghetti is unfulfilling, but a rock-like handhold doesn't guarantee the kind of arm tension that makes the dance connected.

Yip, the majority of moves you can use a light tension usually compression to lead the moves but some moves need a bigger force to work, like a lean or a deep dip, you need to move some of your partners body weight to a certain point to make the move work. I think the step-back is one of those moves where it works better if the tension is more on the heavy side, well that’s my personal preference.

DD.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

What I noticed about her style was that say after return on the step back she would take a small step away from me only one foot at most but then she would lean back with the majority of the weight on her back foot to an angle of about 45 degrees, in some cases her spare hand was nearly touching the floor!!

Good Grief!

Good job you didn't try to lead her to walk backwards then. She would have fallen flat on her bum.

If I want lead forwards then I lead forwards. If I want to lead backwards then I lead backwards and to do that I need the follower to be pitched slighlty forward so the we immediately go into compression. If a follower wants to throw themselves backwards and expect me to stop them from falling over then I just don't want to work that hard and I will just find someone else to dance with. But if that sort of dancer is what floats your boat then go for it. Just not my cup of tea.

When I gave advice to Jan I was talking about producing a dancer that I would like to lead and pitching it to a rusty intermediate. I thought it would be good for Jan to learn some things before she started to learn how to break the rules. Followers that throw themselves backwards and yank on my arm I can find anywhere.

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Chef

Good Grief!
Good job you didn't try to lead her to walk backwards then. She would have fallen flat on her bum.

If I want lead forwards then I lead forwards. If I want to lead backwards then I lead backwards and to do that I need the follower to be pitched slighlty forward so the we immediately go into compression. If a follower wants to throw themselves backwards and expect me to stop them from falling over then I just don't want to work that hard and I will just find someone else to dance with. But if that sort of dancer is what floats your boat then go for it. Just not my cup of tea.

I think I see what you’re getting at Chef and I agree.

I think it’s to simplistic to say you need the follower pitched slightly forward, a better way to pitch it IMO would be to say you need the follower to have and react to the dynamic tension between you and her. Acting a bit like a spring to the tension you are putting into the dance.

Therefore after a return if you the Lead was pitched slightly forward and giving compression tension through the connecting hand then the follower should match it. In that position you could then easily lead them backwards and they wouldn’t fall on their bum.

On the other hand after a return, if you step back and have suspension tension running through your arm then the follower should match that tension by stepping on to their back foot and leaning back to match you.

The Cambridge dancer was a very good dancer and was just matching me and over emphasizing the lean back which was her style (which I loved), there was no throwing or yanking everything was very smooth, we had great connection and great dances.

I’m sure if I tried to lead her into walking backwards she would have reacted perfectly as she was a great follower and followed my lead with total ease.

Originally Posted by Chef

When I gave advice to Jan I was talking about producing a dancer that I would like to lead and pitching it to a rusty intermediate. I thought it would be good for Jan to learn some things before she started to learn how to break the rules. Followers that throw themselves backwards and yank on my arm I can find anywhere.

Sure.

The best advice I can think of giving to Jan is to think of the connection between her partner of one of a spring which gently reacts to the tension between her and her partner. Sometimes the spring compresses and spring gently out again, sometimes the spring get stretched and gently pulls back in again but it’s always in dynamic tension from one end to the other.

So if Jan thinks about herself being half the spring gently and smoothly reacting to the other half of the spring to the Lead then her dancing will improve greatly without the need to remember any moves or difficult stuff like that.

You can read lots of stuff on outer connection (spring between you and your partner) and inner connection (the spring within your own body) on here, but doing a connection workshop or asking a good teacher or taxi dancer about connection (the springs ) will improve your dancing so much within literally minutes.

Best wishes, DD.

Striving to be 22.5% better than my best.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

Sorry but Chef is right. After the step back all the follow can possibly do is come forward again so they should be leaning slightly forward and on the ball of their foot ready to go.

After a step back, the follower has four options; most likely is stepping forward, but could be a step back, could be to have the trailing foot join the lead foot or could be to maintain the weight on the back foot. (*)
If the follower has the weight on the front foot, then you are correct: all the follow can possibly do is step forward again. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

As I said before; bend the knees in response to the speed of the music; a relaxed flex at 'normal' speeds, but the faster the track the more bent they become, which throws you more onto your toes and the more dynamic your dancing is.

So let's put it another way, the lady from Cambridge leant back so far that it was almost like weight lifting to keep her off the floor. Because she was doing this you had to lean back yourself, in effect then she was leading you. You do not use your body weight to get tension, and the idea of 3 stones of it doesn't sound at all appealing to me.

Originally Posted by Marioswingdaddy

. If both individuals learn to counter-balance (and that's the magic word, really) then the amount/degree/weight of lead is a non-issue. Imagine a scale with 1 gram on either plate...an additional gram will cause it to tip. Take the same scale and place a car (American of course!) on each plate and once again a gram will cause it to tip. How far back OR forward the couple decides to lean (placing their center away from their support) is up to them, but it should be balanced. If this is achieved, then all the arguments of weight/degree/amount disappear since both parties would not find it uncomfortable.

It's about balance and trust: Personally I find too much tension in a connection to be draining - but the connection is what works on the "Frame". Lack of frame is what causes spagetti arms, not lack of connection.

(Although Franck would argue that this is a lack of connection; just within the dancer's own body rather than between partners )

~edit~
* Note the advice is to do with stepping - not leading or following. It is possible to lead any step variation, and it is possible to follow it. But by assuming that the start of a lead into a step back will result in the next bit being a step forward, isn't this the same as assuming because the start of a "first move" was led that it will finish like one?

[Agente Secreto]

Originally Posted by Gadget

After a step back, the follower has four options; most likely is stepping forward, but could be a step back, could be to have the trailing foot join the lead foot or could be to maintain the weight on the back foot. (*)
If the follower has the weight on the front foot, then you are correct: all the follow can possibly do is step forward again. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just goes to show the peril of responding to posts out of context

If you care to look back at Chef's original note he was talking about a rock-step at the start. Unless I've missed something fundamental, the step back is normally followed by a step together.

Now technically you are right that with an experienced follow a good leader might just lead another thing entirely but thinking about that probably wouldn't be helping a rusty intermediate.

[David Bailey]

Argh! I keep misreading this thread title as "Busty intermediate"...

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

(sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

Jan

Rubbish

It is the most important thing
as every one says, Relax, enjoy, and just follow

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

Just goes to show the peril of responding to posts out of context

If you care to look back at Chef's original note he was talking about a rock-step at the start. Unless I've missed something fundamental, the step back is normally followed by a step together.

Now technically you are right that with an experienced follow a good leader might just lead another thing entirely but thinking about that probably wouldn't be helping a rusty intermediate.

A 'rusty intermediate' won't be dancing with any "good leaders"? Isn't good technique "good technique" no matter what level you are?

I don't think it was out of context: Setting myself up for a fall here, but I think that there is no such thing as a "rock-step" within freestyle MJ.

There is a step back and a step forward, but I think a "rock-step" is an individual movement where the start and end are identical, the weight is transferred to the back foot and returned to the front foot. It is one complete entity with a start and end and does not allow for any changes to it - therefore an anticipatory move. Like starting a follower into a move and letting them get on with it, then collecting them at the other end.
...So I suppose that there could be a 'rock-step'... but it should be treated like every other move; should be led through-out and be subject to change. And you can't change it if you are single minded in the intent on stepping forward after the step back and don't give yourself any opportunity for variation. (ie don't actually transfer the weight.)


Another thing about the step back: try not to throw the shoulder (above the foot being stepped back onto) back. The shoulder should only come back on a preperation to a turn or spin. For the leads, this is rare, so they should seldom be anything but square-on to their partner.
If you find that the shoulder wants to go back, you are probably stepping behind the front foot on the step back; twisting the hips and so twisting the rest of the body with it. It also helps if your toes/foot continues to point towards your partner on the step back.
(Having feet paralell requires you to have more balance than forming a stable "T" with your feet, but the resulting 'straight on' hips and torso makes your dancing more focused on your partner without looking ungainly and twisted.)

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Hi, new to the forum and would like some direction please. I started MJ back in 1999 and thought I was a reasonable dancer. Broke off in 2002 to have a family but now able to attend a class and the odd freestyle now and again. Crikey things have changed - would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.

Where did you dance and where do you dance now ?

I've dance jive /ceroc since 1994 and nothing fundementally has 'changed'

Is this another Gus in disguise

[Lou]

Originally Posted by stewart38

I've dance jive /ceroc since 1994 and nothing fundementally has 'changed'

There you go, Jan - problem solved. Just dance with Stewart all the time...

[Chef]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Rubbish

It {the big cheesy grin} is the most important thing
as every one says, Relax, enjoy, and just follow

If that what makes you happy. Down here a big cheesy grin and poor dance skills will only get you to the end of the first dance. There have been a few ladies down here that have tried the tactic of wearing high heel knee boots, short skirts and loads of cleavage on display to try and make up for not being asked to dance that much but all they have achieved is to attract the attention of people they don't want attention from.

Relax and follow are good things to do but being able to hold up your end of the bargain (or at least try) with some solid dance skills will get you a lot further than a big cheesy grin. I don't want people to look miserable and serious but you will get further with dance skills and a big smile than you will with a smile alone.

When I gave my advice I pitched it to someone who was returning to dance and in the belief that she was someone who would like to have no bad dance habits that would impede her progress. That is why I concentrated on the most basic required skills and only gave enough detail for her to make progress without being overwhelmed with detail.

But the subject of the rock step will not go away. I think of the rock step like having a person sitting on a playground swing. It easiest to push when the person has started to go away from me and I just add to the motion. It is easiest to pull when they are coming towards me and I just add to the motion.

I start the motion off by establishing compression with my partner (and before that I shift their weight so they step back on the foot that I choose) and leading their backward motion through compression. If I want them to put all their weight on their back foot, as I would in the case of getting them to walk backwards, I keep the compresion going, usually by maintaining frame and stepping towards them (so it is important that I have chosen which foot they step backwards on).

I can use lead and follow to communicate with my partner a whole host of movements instead of the standard rock step, but only if my partner is not in the bad habit of ignoring my lead.

So when someone asks your advice you can could give them the "big cheesy grin advice", let them pick up bad habits that will halt their progress at the beginner stage, or as I would prefer, ensure they don't develop bad habits from day one. The latter approach, IMO takes only a little more time to learn, but once learnt is an asset for a lifetime.

[Jan in Notts]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Where did you dance and where do you dance now ?

I've dance jive /ceroc since 1994 and nothing fundementally has 'changed'

Is this another Gus in disguise

Hi, definitely not another Gus in disguise - if I was I would understand why the thread on going off modern jive has turned into a "handbags at dawn" row about the semi-circle step back - methinks there is more to the hijacking of that thread than meets the eye.......

I used to dance in Nottingham and Leicester with occasional visits to Ceroc Midlands. I have started back at Nottingham and also attended a recent freestyle at Rugby. My view is that there is a lot more focus on style and technique (obviously not a bad thing) and I am striving to improve my dancing in this area.

Thanks for everyone's comments which have been really helpful but to be honest I am finding that a lot of the threads on the forum are going over my head. This I think leaves me with the option of signing up for a workshop - unless anyone wants to offer free coaching next time they are near Marcus Garvey?? (still searching for cheeky monkey smilie)

[ChrisB]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Hi, definitely not another Gus in disguise - if I was I would understand why the thread on going off modern jive has turned into a "handbags at dawn" row about the semi-circle step back - methinks there is more to the hijacking of that thread than meets the eye.......

I used to dance in Nottingham and Leicester with occasional visits to Ceroc Midlands. I have started back at Nottingham and also attended a recent freestyle at Rugby. My view is that there is a lot more focus on style and technique (obviously not a bad thing) and I am striving to improve my dancing in this area.

Thanks for everyone's comments which have been really helpful but to be honest I am finding that a lot of the threads on the forum are going over my head. This I think leaves me with the option of signing up for a workshop - unless anyone wants to offer free coaching next time they are near Marcus Garvey?? (still searching for cheeky monkey smilie)

I dance at MG, in fact I was there on Monday. I'm in no position to coach but I'll dance with you

[Trousers]

Whenever i see this thread

Rusty intermediate needs guidance

My brain reads

Naughty girl seeks correction

But I'm probabaly alone on that!

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Thanks for everyone's comments which have been really helpful but to be honest I am finding that a lot of the threads on the forum are going over my head. This I think leaves me with the option of signing up for a workshop - unless anyone wants to offer free coaching next time they are near Marcus Garvey?? (still searching for cheeky monkey smilie)

Will do and if you want to dance 1994 style you know where Im at

Originally Posted by Lou

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