Rusty intermediate needs guidance

[Jan in Notts]

Hi, new to the forum and would like some direction please. I started MJ back in 1999 and thought I was a reasonable dancer. Broke off in 2002 to have a family but now able to attend a class and the odd freestyle now and again. Crikey things have changed - would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.

I have been having a good look around the forum but to be honest a lot of the stuff is going straight over my head at the moment.

Should I think about trying a WCS class, go to a few MJ workshops - if so which ones? or just grin and bear it when I see the look of disappointment on the lead's face. Still having a great time dancing - stupid smile still on face after I leave the dance floor - but would like to make it a more fun experience for my dance partners as well as improve my style (sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

Any comments would be welcome.

Cheers

Jan

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Hi, new to the forum and would like some direction please. I started MJ back in 1999 and thought I was a reasonable dancer. Broke off in 2002 to have a family but now able to attend a class and the odd freestyle now and again. Crikey things have changed - would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.

I have been having a good look around the forum but to be honest a lot of the stuff is going straight over my head at the moment.

Should I think about trying a WCS class, go to a few MJ workshops - if so which ones? or just grin and bear it when I see the look of disappointment on the lead's face. Still having a great time dancing - stupid smile still on face after I leave the dance floor - but would like to make it a more fun experience for my dance partners as well as improve my style (sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

Any comments would be welcome.

Cheers

Jan

Yup, I think things have changed a bit since the old days! It's like fashion.

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. I don't know you, so it might not fit what you're after Feel free to ignore, if you don't think it suits you.

I'd say the best thing to start with is just to relax & work on your following. If you're bouncy, just concentrate on smoothing your style out a bit. If you have a tendency to anticipate or backlead, try to listen to your lead more. Don't rush into moves, relax into them. This way, it will allow the man to lead you more easily into the slower & slinkier stuff. You can work on this in a regular class & freestyle. Once, you're more comfortable with that, think about maybe a ladies' style workshop or similar.

If you try a WCS workshop, be prepared for frustration if there's no regular classes nearby as you may well get addicted.

BTW... don't stop the smiling bit.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

would love to improve my dancing but I am having difficulties following the slower/slinkier moves.

Can you be a bit more specific? I know, trying to describe this stuff in writing is very difficult, but it may help.

For example, a couple of problems I've noticed some people do with slower stuff are:
- they literally, mechanically slow everything down - so it looks like slow-motion dancing.
- they spin / turn / move the same speed, then get to the end quick, and "hang about" for a beat or two.

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Should I think about trying a WCS class, go to a few MJ workshops - if so which ones?

I'd avoid WCS classes, unless you want to dance WCS - similarly, I'd avoid AT or salsa classes. In the short term, they only teach you to dance that specific dance - getting any improvement in MJ dancing will take much longer, as you'll have to master those other dances first.

In MJ workshops, a Blues kind of workshop would seem appropriate - maybe something like one of Marc & Rachel's "Cuban Blues" workshops?

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

(sometimes a big cheesy grin just isn't enough).

A big cheesy grin is always the most important part.

[Jan in Notts]

Originally Posted by Lou

I'd say the best thing to start with is just to relax & work on your following. If you're bouncy, just concentrate on smoothing your style out a bit. If you have a tendency to anticipate or backlead, try to listen to your lead more.

Hi Lou, thanks for your advice - guilty as charged of most of the above I am afraid. When I started at Ceroc, I used to go home after a class and write out the lead moves, like many others I suppose, and then practice them in front of the mirror (or was that just me? ) unfortunately this got me into a bad habit of anticpating/backleading.

I have gone along to the beginners classes with a newbie friend and used the lesson as a way of relearning how to follow and hope this will help with the smoother moves when freestyling.

Thanks for your time

Jan

[dave the scaffolder]

Relax, smile and enjoy it Jan.

If you are enjoying it your partner will be as well.

Just follow the lead and everything is the fault of the lead.

DTS XXX XXX

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Hi Lou, thanks for your advice - guilty as charged of most of the above I am afraid. When I started at Ceroc, I used to go home after a class and write out the lead moves, like many others I suppose, and then practice them in front of the mirror (or was that just me? )

Nope - many of us started out that way, if we're being honest. And I totally understand - for the last 6 years I've been trying to stop anticipating & backleading (well, since joining the Forum & discovering where I was going wrong, anyway ).

There's one big danger of using the beginner's class to learn to follow - and that's because the beginner men haven't learnt to lead yet! But, yes, do try it with the more experienced blokes. And maybe grab a taxi to help?

Just a few thoughts to help you work on it...

As everyone has said on this thread - relax & keep smiling.

Try not to think! (Some people say "leave your brain at the door", and whilst I wouldn't totally agree with that, I like the sentiment). Try not to guess what the move is meant to be - think about what the lead is trying to tell you.

A good way to start feeling the lead is to follow his hand with your bellybutton. Yup, it sounds odd, but the vast majority of men lead MJ from their arms, and the hand that's holding your right hand is the one way they can communicate their intentions. The bellybutton trick improves your frame and focuses your attention to that one area of communication.

I hope this helps a bit. It's a couple of tricks I've successfully used to help me, anyway. But as TAFKADJ said above:

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Can you be a bit more specific? I know, trying to describe this stuff in writing is very difficult, but it may help.

it's hard to describe this stuff in writing. Let us know how things turn out.

[Chef]

Hello Jan. Welcome to the forum and welcome back to dancing.

Things have moved on a little since you stopped dancing but underneath that the fundementals of partner dancing haven't changed. Things won't be as bad as you feared but you might not be as good as your remembered that you were.

Here are somethings that MAY help you.

Backleading. Don't do it! you will only end up training your men not to lead. Something that is essential for me when I am trying the followers role is to close my eyes. I don't see the move coming so I can't anticipate. I also seem to stand taller and stay more on balance and concentrate only on what my hand is being led. Of course there is no point in the leader giving me hand signals, like tapping his left shoulder with the first two fingers of his right hand (I kid you not) to signal a move, because I won't see it. I do choose leaders that I feel are able to lead purely from the hand.

The hand that is leading you is the one that is closest to your centre. If his hand is on your back then that is the one that is leading. Quite useful to know when dancing slow and in close hold.

Relax. There is ususally more time than you think for the dancing. If a particualr speed of track seems to mean you dance in a frantic manner then, for now, only choose slower tracks to dance to. Dancing to too fast music when you are not ready will not lift your spirits. Getting frantic means you dance untidy and untidy dancing takes more time and effort.

Spinning. Re- learn how to spin on your own at home. Devote equal time to spinning in each direction so your are equally good in both directions. Ask your teacher to give you specific advice. Learning to spin in complete control of your self is much more important than being able to spin fast, or multiple times, while not in control. Why learn at home on your own? Your partner never gets bored. You can learn that you don't need to be a great distance from your partner in order for them to be safe. Ham fisted leaders can be more of a hinderance than a help so it is worth being confident with your spinning before you let a leader lead you into spins.

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards). Now try taking a peice of string and sticking one end to a wall with blu tack. Hold the other end of the string and hold it so it is nearly tight. Now do your rock step without pulling the string off the blu tack. If your body is moving backwards then compensate by moving your hand forward. If you are constantly pulling the string off the blu tack it will feel to your leader that you are yanking his arm.

Lastly. Be patient with yourself. These things take time.

[johnnyman]

Hi.

Good to see you back in the swing of dancing again after your sabbatical.

In a way, you may be at an advantage because you can come to it with a fresh perspective and not have to worry about those bad habits you may have picked up.

WCS is a good place to develop your style because you are forced to think about your dancing more subjectively.

Anyway, best of luck getting back in the frame.

best
johnnyman

[Jan in Notts]

Hi, thanks to everyone who has responded to my thread. I am off upstairs with my blu-tac and string now. Next time you are in Nottingham you will recognise me as the woman contemplating her belly button with her eyes shut - beware!!

Seriously lots of really good advice which I am going to work on, thanks again to you all for your help and supportive comments.

Jan

[Lou]

I've just seen Chef's excellent reply. So I want to expand on something I said earlier...

Originally Posted by Lou

Yup, it sounds odd, but the vast majority of men lead MJ from their arms, and the hand that's holding your right hand is the one way they can communicate their intentions.

Chef mentioned:

Originally Posted by Chef

The hand that is leading you is the one that is closest to your centre. If his hand is on your back then that is the one that is leading. Quite useful to know when dancing slow and in close hold.

which is entirely correct. In my previous comments, I was referring to open positions. Hopefully it won't cause any confusion.

Originally Posted by Chef

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards). Now try taking a peice of string and sticking one end to a wall with blu tack. Hold the other end of the string and hold it so it is nearly tight. Now do your rock step without pulling the string off the blu tack. If your body is moving backwards then compensate by moving your hand forward. If you are constantly pulling the string off the blu tack it will feel to your leader that you are yanking his arm.

I'm not sure whether I totally understand that paragraph, Chef. Are you saying there shouldn't be a weight change on the rock step (as you say about keeping "your weight forward")? Or is it that it shouldn't be a large weight change (which I agree can lead to yanking)? I personally think that a weight change should be there, otherwise it could lead to the feeling of rushing through the move. Quite often I don't actually step back at all, but I've always got that weight shift happening, even if my feet are together.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Chef

Get your rock step sorted. We start all moves in MJ with a rock step which Ceroc teach as "take a step back". My advice is to try to do this without your heel touching the ground and keep your weight forward as if you are just about to move forward (because you are). Instead of stepping back rock onto your back foot and then onto your front foot (do not lift your front foot off the floor - it is a sign that you have moved your weight too far backwards).

I agree with Lou here: one of the most common "mistakes" beginners make is not transferring their weight to the back foot on the step back - just sticking their foot back. What causes the 'yanking' is less to do with the transferral of weight and putting the heel down and more to do with the size of step being taken: take smaller steps.

When you step back, there shouldn't be much floor between the heel of the 'static' foot and the toe of the one being stepped back on. More than the size of your own foot and it's a huge step back. I would aim for about the distance between toe and arch or less.

Don't worry about not putting heels down either - if you just keep a slight flex in your knees it will happen automatically and you will find you become much more responsive. (and spins become easier)

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I agree with Lou here: one of the most common "mistakes" beginners make is not transferring their weight to the back foot on the step back - just sticking their foot back. What causes the 'yanking' is less to do with the transferral of weight and putting the heel down and more to do with the size of step being taken: take smaller steps.

When you step back, there shouldn't be much floor between the heel of the 'static' foot and the toe of the one being stepped back on. More than the size of your own foot and it's a huge step back. I would aim for about the distance between toe and arch or less.

Don't worry about not putting heels down either - if you just keep a slight flex in your knees it will happen automatically and you will find you become much more responsive. (and spins become easier)

Different ways of achieving the same thing. If you keep your body weight forward you wont be able to take a huge step back, therefore you will be taking smaller steps.

If you place your weight on your the heel of the foot you step back on then you will have transferred your body weight backwards. I have just tried it again. You can take a small step backwards and place your heel down while keeping your body weight forwards but it feels really weird. If your do put your body weight down on the heel (there is a difference between being able to make contact with the floor and placing weight on the heel) then you have to move your body weight backwards in order to do so. The problem with that is that you then have to move it forwards again and that slows you down. The "take small steps" is good advice though. If you get too far away from your partner then you have to take large steps to get back to him. It makes your approach to get back to your partner look (and feel) less like dancing and more like a frenzied attack.

The point of the rock step part of my advice was to achieve the effect of not placing too much tension into the connection with your partner to the point where you are uncomfortably tugging on the connection. The leaders job is to lead you, not to prevent you from falling over backwards and all the tugging feels uncomfortable for both of you.

Additional bit of advice. Never let either hand drop below hip height. If you look around a dance floor most ladies will let the hand that is not connected to their partner hang limply at their side. Leaders can't reach it there and it looks so naff. Keep your spare hand up at about hip/waist height and it is available to your partner and also for styling to make you look good.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Chef

Different ways of achieving the same thing. If you keep your body weight forward you wont be able to take a huge step back, therefore you will be taking smaller steps.

You don't come from a Lindy background do you?

If you place your weight on your the heel of the foot you step back on then you will have transferred your body weight backwards. I have just tried it again. You can take a small step backwards and place your heel down while keeping your body weight forwards but it feels really weird. If your do put your body weight down on the heel (there is a difference between being able to make contact with the floor and placing weight on the heel) then you have to move your body weight backwards in order to do so.

exactly!. It's a weight transfer. It also encourages you to keep upright and not bend forward (sticking a leg back normally results in bending at the waist and leaning forward to counter-balance. ) Stepping back and transferring the weight keeps your body and your center over your feet resulting in much better balance and better ability to react to change.

The problem with that is that you then have to move it forwards again and that slows you down.

It's not a problem. You are not doing a step-ball-change; it's a step and replace. You have all the time you need; the transferral of weight allows for a more relaxed feel while increasing the dynamics of the dance. It also looks more elegant.

It's called a "rock step" for a reason; the weight is 'rocked' from the front foot to the back foot and back again.

The point of the rock step part of my advice was to achieve the effect of not placing too much tension into the connection with your partner to the point where you are uncomfortably tugging on the connection. The leaders job is to lead you, not to prevent you from falling over backwards and all the tugging feels uncomfortable for both of you.

I agree; you don't want to be tugging your partner with every step back, but I don't agree with your techniques to acheive it. "Bouncing" back onto the back foot is more likley to tug than taking the time to settle back and return.

Additional bit of advice. Never let either hand drop below hip height. If you look around a dance floor most ladies will let the hand that is not connected to their partner hang limply at their side. Leaders can't reach it there and it looks so naff. Keep your spare hand up at about hip/waist height and it is available to your partner and also for styling to make you look good.

Just wanted to highlight that bit - good tip, but equally (when connected this time) try not to let your hand lift upwards above the bottom of your rib-cage.
Leads may move your hand below the waist, but unless they are turning you or changing hand-holds/connection points the hands should never come above the last rib.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Gadget

You don't come from a Lindy background do you?

Sorry. MJ through and through. Just well trained MJ.


[

Originally Posted by Gadget

i]exactly![/i]. It's a weight transfer. It also encourages you to keep upright and not bend forward (sticking a leg back normally results in bending at the waist and leaning forward to counter-balance. ) Stepping back and transferring the weight keeps your body and your center over your feet resulting in much better balance and better ability to react to change.

I am not asking for a tap step (no weight placed on the back foot) I am asking for a rock step were the weight is not fully transferred to the back foot and not fully taken off the front foot. If you do take your body back (take small steps to limit this) don't take your hand backwards or it will feel to your leader that you are tugging.

The body will be pitched forward but not by much. If you are moving backwards you do it from a low place and if you are moving forwards then a high place like your shoulder height. Try sitting on a chair by pitching your shoulders backwards first - tricky yes? Once you are sitting on the chair try sitting bolt upright and move off of it by lifting your hips forward first. In order to go forward you need your upper body pitched forward.

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's not a problem. You are not doing a step-ball-change; it's a step and replace. You have all the time you need; the transferral of weight allows for a more relaxed feel while increasing the dynamics of the dance. It also looks more elegant.

I have seem many followers doing the rock step where the look (and feel) like they are about to fall backwards without the aid ot the man to hold her hand. I don't think that looks elegant - but that is just my opinion. As for having all the time you need - the only comment I can make is that fast tracks like Candyman have to be slowed down for most dancers parlty because they spend their rocksteps throwing themselves backwards (while kicking their front foot up in the air like the WW2 german goosestep march) and then forwards and can't do it fast enough.

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's called a "rock step" for a reason; the weight is 'rocked' from the front foot to the back foot and back again.

Indeed. But do you believe it is a total weight change on each part of the rock step? If you do then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Gadget

I agree; you don't want to be tugging your partner with every step back, but I don't agree with your techniques to acheive it. "Bouncing" back onto the back foot is more likley to tug than taking the time to settle back and return.

Bouncing back may well tug at your partner, rocking without your hand moving back should not. The little excercise with the peice of sting and blu tack would let you know pretty quickly if you are tugging.

I do hope this discussion of details is not serving to confuse Jan in Notts. If hwat I am saying to you doesn't make sense then just ignore it.

[Jan in Notts]

Originally Posted by Chef

I do hope this discussion of details is not serving to confuse Jan in Notts. If hwat I am saying to you doesn't make sense then just ignore it.

Not confused just really interested to hear all the different points of view. Just goes to show that every dancer is unique and that is what makes each dance so different, challenging and enjoyable.

Jan

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Jan in Notts

Not confused just really interested to hear all the different points of view. Just goes to show that every dancer is unique and that is what makes each dance so different, challenging and enjoyable.

Sorry! I started it!

I was originally confused by Chef's comments, but after his last reply...

Originally Posted by Chef

I am not asking for a tap step (no weight placed on the back foot) I am asking for a rock step were the weight is not fully transferred to the back foot and not fully taken off the front foot. If you do take your body back (take small steps to limit this) don't take your hand backwards or it will feel to your leader that you are tugging.

he's clarified matters for me, and I think we agree. The point he's making is that it's important not to tug or to use your partner for balance & his blu-tack exercise seems really good to highlight this. And, now he's explained further, I think I do exactly what he's describing - I think it was a terminology issue, as the weight change is there. From what you were originally saying, though, I'm guessing this is less of a problem for you, as you originally asked for help with slower dancing, and as Chef again points out, this fault often comes to light with fast songs.

And I agree with Gadget that I find a lot of men beginners who just tap & don't make any weight shift at all, so I agree that at beginner level it should be emphasized.