Does your nearest MJ class teach the Semi-Circle?

[Agente Secreto]

My nearest venue is Ceroc St Neots - only been there once and it was taught. I dance at Jive Nites Buckden where the semi-circle has never been taught. Oh no, how do I vote? I'm going with a no

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Agente Secreto

My nearest venue is Ceroc St Neots - only been there once and it was taught. I dance at Jive Nites Buckden where the semi-circle has never been taught. Oh no, how do I vote? I'm going with a no

Wrong!

This is why I was very specific about it being your "nearest" venue. To do otherwise would introduce an element of preference. Isn't the data skewed enough by our current sample method?

[StokeBloke]

Is the infamous 'semi-circle start' copyright to Ceroc?

I'm not badly placed to comment on this as I have been all over the UK dancing, during that time the semi-circle thing seems to fall into two distinct camps. Pretty much without exception it seems to be:

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

Andy, maybe it would be more useful to ask if anyone has seen exceptions to these two general rules. I know of one Ceroc teacher who doesn't teach the semi-circle, but I will not name them as Ceroc seem a little tetchy about the whole 'one true way' thing they seem to have going. I even saw a Ceroc (UTOPIA) blues class being taught when the teacher said "a slow semi-circle to the left and ste...". HONESTLY! I kid you not! On the reverse of that same coin, I have NEVER seen an independent instructor teach a semi-circle start.

I am a little surprised that a company like Ceroc who have their business based in teaching dance are still teaching something so plainly wrong and destructive to learning good dance technique. As has already been said by Lynn... the first move ladies learn to back lead. Pretty much by the end of their first lesson too!!

Imagine someone being taught to navigate for their pilot's license, and they are told by the instructor "Yes we appreciate that the Earth is not flat. However, we have always taught that it is and therefore we will continue to do so regardless of the fact that it screws up all the other stuff you are trying to learn. We feel that being painfully wrong is preferable to admitting you were wrong in the past but intelligent enough to make a change when it's pointed out."

Now I would not be so improper as to suggest that Ceroc take that dreadful myopic view of their teaching, but you have to admit there is a slight similarity to that silly example and the 'Ceroc one true way'

[Agente Secreto]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Wrong!

This is why I was very specific about it being your "nearest" venue. To do otherwise would introduce an element of preference. Isn't the data skewed enough by our current sample method?

OK, then I'll forget my single attendance at the local Ceroc venue and go with what I know. Like Stokie says the venue is independent and almost by definition shuns the circle.

[TheTramp]

Hmmm. Seems like the semi-circle has become the fount of all evil.

Okie. Personal standpoint on this. I hate the semi-circle. I hate teaching it when I teach for Ceroc. I do it because I must. I have asked Franck to remove it.

However, as far as it going, doing the semi-circle does not make you a bad dancer. It does not mean that, if you don't do it, you're automatically a good dancer. So, if you don't do the semi-circle, don't kid yourself that you're the best thing since sliced bread - either as a teacher, or as a dancer (although, of course, you might be )! It's really almost a style point, rather than anything else. When I teach it, I teach the men to do it, and on the down part of the motion to establish connection, and then lead their partner back.

There are plenty of people, in plenty of classes (and yes, including Andy's) who don't do the semi-circle, and still have plenty of bad habits. As far as it goes, there are far more things that I would prefer to see being taught and emphasised from the stage than worrying about the semi-circle (of course, I do understand that Andy does all of these too).

So, my personal summary about whether or not to teach the semi-circle is that it's down to personal preference, and I don't really care, provided things like connection, weight transference, weight awareness, anticipation (or the lack thereof), etc. are taught. All are much more important. Andy seems to have chosed to fight his aversion for all things Ceroc on this point. I think that maybe he should concentrate on something that actually matters

[Gus]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

Urrrr ... Thinking about the N West, George Moss, Kevin, Paula C, Northern Jive etc etc ... all independent, all use the semi-c don't they?

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Imagine someone being taught to navigate for their pilot's license, and they are told by the instructor "Yes we appreciate that the Earth is not flat. However, we have always taught that it is and therefore we will continue to do so regardless of the fact that it screws up all the other stuff you are trying to learn. We feel that being painfully wrong is preferable to admitting you were wrong in the past but intelligent enough to make a change when it's pointed out."

Sorry .... I've not seen evidence that the semi-c is the direct source of evil. IF you are so certain that it is so ... are you going to assert that ALL who teach the semi-c can't teach, and the converse is true?

[StokeBloke]

Originally Posted by Gus

so ... are you going to assert that ALL who teach the semi-c can't teach, and the converse is true?

Nope

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

I hate to prove you wrong. But I can do so in three letters;

G
U
S

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Andy seems to have chosed to fight his aversion for all things Ceroc on this point. I think that maybe he should concentrate on something that actually matters

Chosed?

I have no aversion for Ceroc - although I'm not a great fan of orange

I do concentrate on things that really matter. Why would I post them on here? Having said that, I can see no use for this silly wave and can see many reasons why it is counter-productive.

I am delighted that Ceroc do this and I'm delighted that my local competition also do the semi-circle. It makes me look like I'm a dance God by comparison - when all I'm actually doing is not doing something - it's a Zen thing and I love it

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

G
U
S

Or was that

G
A
S
?

He's full of it, obviously

[marcusj]

On one hand millions starving in the world and in mortal fear of political and ethnic persecution ... and on the other people getting huffy about a semi circle or not ... I'm pleased a sense of proportion prevails on the forum !

[Lou]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Is the infamous 'semi-circle start' copyright to Ceroc?

I'm not badly placed to comment on this as I have been all over the UK dancing, during that time the semi-circle thing seems to fall into two distinct camps. Pretty much without exception it seems to be:

1. Independent Dance Teachers - DON'T teach the semi-circle.
2. Ceroc Dance Teachers - DO teach the semi-circle.

I have to disagree, Stokie. There's a lot of independent teachers in Bristol & South Wales who teach it. Andy McG started the thread with an indie who teaches it. And I've already listed one of the Collective™ who doesn't teach it, and she's not the only one....

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by marcusj

On one hand millions starving in the world and in mortal fear of political and ethnic persecution ... and on the other people getting huffy about a semi circle or not ... I'm pleased a sense of proportion prevails on the forum !

It's this sense of proportion that allows us to go out dancing at night too.

When I become a super-hero there will be no starving, I'll stamp out all fear, all politics and all ethnic persecution. I will wage a war that unites all countries under the same flag, there will be only one world and I will be the supreme leader, there will be no politics because my word will be the law and I will choose the master race, obliterating all others to bring an end to ethnic differences for ever*. But today I have to earn a living, maybe tomorrow, but not if it's raining, or I forget to set my alarm

This argument that we shouldn't be frivious because there is suffering in the world, if serious, is a time-worn load of rubbish. I'm not even going to put up the counter-argument. Barry's not busy at the moment, perhaps he can expose this weak minded argument for what it is.


*And I'll grow one of those natty little moustaches under my nose and develop a grand salute - oh, and real men will get to wear long leather coats and shiny boots.

[ChrisB]

It feels largely like a teacher preference although they might feel pressured to do things the way their organisation calls for. Whenever I've seen Marc Forster teach Ceroc, he'll normally point out that he isn't doing it. I also like the way Trampy approaches it. He'll have you establish connection and lead normally before commenting along the lines of "just to help the beginners we're going to give a slight signal with a semi circle as we lead her back"; I guess thats the best you can do if we must have the abomination at all. But everything varies from teacher to teacher, some older school Ceroc teachers will teach the yoyo with a normal grip, newer teachers use the flat hand. I did think the semi circle was exclusive to Ceroc though

[marcusj]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

It's this sense of proportion that allows us to go out dancing at night too.

When I become a super-hero there will be no starving, I'll stamp out all fear, all politics and all ethnic persecution. I will wage a war that unites all countries under the same flag, there will be only one world and I will be the supreme leader, there will be no politics because my word will be the law and I will choose the master race, obliterating all others to bring an end to ethnic differences for ever*. But today I have to earn a living, maybe tomorrow, but not if it's raining, or I forget to set my alarm

This argument that we shouldn't be frivious because there is suffering in the world, if serious, is a time-worn load of rubbish. I'm not even going to put up the counter-argument. Barry's not busy at the moment, perhaps he can expose this weak minded argument for what it is.


*And I'll grow one of those natty little moustaches under my nose and develop a grand salute - oh, and real men will get to wear long leather coats and shiny boots.

Quite happy to concede it as a time-worn load of rubbish, and weak minded, and you have guessed correctly I was not being serious, it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

As a punter I don't give a sh*it whether the semi circle is taught or not, so many factors determine whether a venue is worth attending or not and this isn't one of them.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by marcusj

Quite happy to concede it as a time-worn load of rubbish, and weak minded, and you have guessed correctly I was not being serious, it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

As a punter I don't give a sh*it whether the semi circle is taught or not, so many factors determine whether a venue is worth attending or not and this isn't one of them.

Quite right

It's a nice and harmless distraction to argue something trivial. Because the outcome doesn't matter

On this occasion Gus is arguing from the weak position. This requires better debating skills. Does Gus have them? At the moment Gus is trying smoke screen distractions by diverting the debate to ancient competitions that were held on the other side of the planet. But those distractions do not support his case in any way - but they might distract me from my position of strength

This thread is part of the on-going debate between Gus and me. Gus accused me of not knowing about the teaching of the semi-circle around the UK. Well, now we know, or at least we're finding out.

And, as I said somewhere, for me it's a Zen thing. The semi-circle is something I don't do or teach. There are many other things I don't do or teach - I could think of some silly things I don't do, like always dancing cupping your opposite man boob with your free hand I really don't need to argue why I'm not doing something, be it starting my partners with a semi-circle or cupping my moob with my free hand. I think it's up to those doing something to sell the benefits to those of us who do not.

Originally Posted by Gus on Acid

Cupping your moob with your free hand is a clear instruction. It gives beginners something to do with their hand. If you didn't tell them to do it they wouldn't know what to do with their free hand. I think we should all do it - everyone up North does it and they teach it at the CTA - at least they did when I qualified with them between the wars. The CTA is the bestest teaching organisation there is and nobody is as good. Andy has no idea, he's not a proper teacher, he has no credentials as a teacher, he's argumentative, nobody likes him and, most importantly, he has a smaller willy than me

[marcusj]

Thanks Andy - maybe it's me who's 12 because I really do want to be a super hero, or play for Arsenal, with everything else being a poor compromise. Not really sensible career aspirations for a 40 something accountant, but we can all dream.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by marcusj

Thanks Andy - maybe it's me who's 12 because I really do want to be a super hero, or play for Arsenal, with everything else being a poor compromise. Not really sensible career aspirations for a 40 something accountant, but we can all dream.

I'm sure there are many accounting conventions that make as much sense as the semi-circle, such as the wearing of women's underwear when you're wearing brogues. Why not when you're wearing loafers?

I have one question though. This is a dream world, so why choose Arsenal?

Or are you implying that you wouldn't play for Arsenal if you were super? Makes sense to me ...

[DundeeDancer]

The three Ceroc classes in Edinburgh teach the semi-c.

I've never been to a class that doesn't start the moves with a semi-c.

What do people use instead, do the just push away there partners arm hoping they'll step back

My gut feeling would be they should keep the semi-c for the beginner classes and then drop it from the intermediate classes by which time dancers hopefully have some grasp of lead and follow.

Cheers, DD.

[marcusj]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I have one question though. This is a dream world, so why choose Arsenal?

Or are you implying that you wouldn't play for Arsenal if you were super? Makes sense to me ...

A good point well observed ... has something to do with having a kickabout with Charlie George when I was 7 and growing up in north London ... with no such loyalties it would have to be Brasil ... with Zico