Does your nearest MJ class teach the Semi-Circle?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

Every Ceroc teacher at my local venues teaches tension and compression

Would like to see this in action. Not yet seen it taught well and after better teaching models to communicate it. Which clubs/instructors?

[ChrisB]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

And the semi-circle?

Most do, a few don't. As much as I dislike it, I can see the reasoning behind it and don't see it any worse than the other absence of lead/follow that creeps into the beginners class, like "both step in" rather than "lead the lady in". Everything they do is focused towards making things as easy as possible and the first phrasing does that, as does waving a semi circle rather than teaching a really good handhold and how to lead/follow basic steps. Go to the beginners workshop and its the first thing they do. But in my experience any more detail than what is generally presented in the beginners class frustrates and bores the majority even if its for their own good.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by tomthumb

I set up my own venue six weeks ago and made the decision not to teach the semi circle and instead start with a gentle push back. It's been welcomed by beginners and experienced dancers. In six weeks the people who started dancing at my venue, having not danced before, have found it much easier to grasp the aspect of lead and follow.
A semi circle with the hand does not encourage a follower to step back (unless they already know its a signal) a gently push does, even a novice can do it.

Before I go into teaching a routine I always go over tension and compression, and include it as I teach the moves.

(former ceroc teacher)

Fabulous. Have some rep.

Where is this oasis of calm in the whirlpool of semi-circles?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisB

Most do, a few don't. As much as I dislike it, I can see the reasoning behind it and don't see it any worse than the other absence of lead/follow that creeps into the beginners class, like "both step in" rather than "lead the lady in". Everything they do is focused towards making things as easy as possible and the first phrasing does that, as does waving a semi circle rather than teaching a really good handhold and how to lead/follow basic steps. Go to the beginners workshop and its the first thing they do. But in my experience any more detail than what is generally presented in the beginners class frustrates and bores the majority even if its for their own good.

Very well analysed post

I think striking the balance between giving detail and frustrating or boring your students is difficult. I sometimes think of a lot of the teaching as almost "tricking" them into doing it right rather than telling them how. For example, talking about footwork takes ages and confuses most people. But a few comments, once in a while, about which foot your weight should be on when it really matters seems to help people find the correct foot most of the time.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Perhaps they feel the need to teach lead/follow that actually means something; not just spurious arm movements that disrupt the connection between the dancers because it's part of "the one true way"


Is this why CTA qualifications don't seem to mean much outside of Ceroc (semi)circles?

Semi-circle teaches lead/follow?? Not in my book it doesn't ... not in any half meaningful way at any rate. I wonder how many follows are already on their way back before the semi-circle is completed ... or started for that matter!

[straycat]

Originally Posted by Magic Hans

Semi-circle teaches lead/follow?? Not in my book it doesn't ... not in any half meaningful way at any rate. I wonder how many follows are already on their way back before the semi-circle is completed ... or started for that matter!

Unless I completely misunderstood him, I think that was more-or-less the point Stokie was making?

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by straycat

Unless I completely misunderstood him, I think that was more-or-less the point Stokie was making?

Oops!!! My misunderstanding then!! ... sometimes difficult to discern irony or sarcasm from textual communication ... unless the author is known by the responder

[tomthumb]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Fabulous. Have some rep.

Where is this oasis of calm in the whirlpool of semi-circles?

Morpeth, Northumberland. It's going really well, numbers are steadily increasing and I'm running my first Beginners workshop today (which has sold out).
As far as I'm aware there are no other dance nights in this area, the closest is Newcastle, Tyne and Wear.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by marcusj

it was simply a poor attempt to draw attention to the ridiculous nature of 2 grown men throwing insults at each other about something so trivial, of course i am assuming you are grown men and not 12.

But it isn't trivial - this is a dance forum and its a valid dance question. Does the use of an arbitrary semi circle spoil tension and compression for beginners when its one of the fundamental lessons they should be learning - or does the semi circle clearly mark the beginning of a set of moves to help beginners learn more quickly ?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

But it isn't trivial - this is a dance forum and its a valid dance question. Does the use of an arbitrary semi circle spoil tension and compression for beginners when its one of the fundamental lessons they should be learning - or does the semi circle clearly mark the beginning of a set of moves to help beginners learn more quickly ?

As sensible post from a Smurf. Evolution in action! Darwin would be proud

[Martin]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Okie. Personal standpoint on this. I hate the semi-circle. I hate teaching it when I teach for Ceroc. I do it because I must. I have asked Franck to remove it.

When I teach it, I teach the men to do it, and on the down part of the motion to establish connection, and then lead their partner back.

Some editing here... <snip>

One thing I respect is that, The Tramp has been asked to do the semi-circle, so he has worked with it and also he has an awareness to bring people a back to a "connection" at the end of it.

That is the sign of a pro teacher working in the confines of what he is asked to do.

When you teach for a business owner of course you need to adapt.

If you are the business owner, then you can do what you like.

My personal thoughts are, the semi - circle might not exist in a few years time.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Martin

My personal thoughts are, the semi - circle might not exist in a few years time.

Now that there's been talk of extinction I'm pretty sure some do-gooder will set up a charity to protect the semi-circle.

If our current government get involved they'll make sure the semi-circle is available to minority groups and illegal immigrants awaiting deportation

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Martin

One thing I respect is that, The Tramp has been asked to do the semi-circle, so he has worked with it and also he has an awareness to bring people a back to a "connection" at the end of it.

I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

I don't like to tell Ceroc what they should be doing (I'm concerned that they will take my advice and be a stronger competitor ). However, I think a natural evolution from the semi-circle would be to raise and lower the hand: you'd apply compression into the hand as you lower it. But first off, for complete beginners, this raise and lower the hand could be the "signal" to replace the semi-circle - it makes more sense than the semi-circle. This would replicate the action of lowering your hand stepping your partner back by appling compression after a turn or return. The result of this would be that you still apply compression into your partners hand to get them to step back and the bonus would be that you get used to leading the back step after a turn rather than leading an over-turn.

For myself, I considered teaching the raise and lower of the hand simply because that's what I observed some of the better teachers doing. However, before copying others I thought I'd try the simple "nudge the lady back" and that seemed to work. It's still working.

[Dreadful Scathe]

raise and lower the hand ? nah - i suggest a hip-hop start where a wave of the leaders right hand undulates across the arm, shoulders and into the left hand holding the followers right which applies a slight forward pressure to move the follower back.

much more cool.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

Hmmm, so are you saying he is crap?

Coz it sort of reads that way, could or could not be, what you mean.

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I thought I'd try the simple "nudge the lady back" and that seemed to work. It's still working.

Which is the same here.. at all venues I have been to in the last 2 years.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Martin

Hmmm, so are you saying he is crap?

Coz it sort of reads that way, could or could not be, what you mean.

NO! That's what you said. I was praising Steve's customer service.

[dep]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

........ giving his customer what he wants rather than what he thinks the customer needs.

there's the ambiguity.
The first "he" could be Steve or the customer.
The second "he" is clearly referring to Steve.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

... However, I think a natural evolution from the semi-circle would be to raise and lower the hand: you'd apply compression into the hand as you lower it. But first off, for complete beginners, this raise and lower the hand could be the "signal" to replace the semi-circle - it makes more sense than the semi-circle. ...

You think they should replace the semicircle with a bounce?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by dep

there's the ambiguity.
The first "he" could be Steve or the customer.
The second "he" is clearly referring to Steve.

Probably right. But, I think my meaning was clear.

For the semantics department, here's the new sentence;

Originally Posted by what Andy should have posted

I think that Steve (the Tramp) does a great job of delivering what his customer wants rather than what Steve thinks the customer needs.

Better?