Standard moves involving steps

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Emma
I don't see what's wrong with telling someone what move is coming up on occasion, or even what steps to do..it's supposed to be fun, not a test! An inexperienced dancer like myself can do with the occasional hint!

Signals and verbal leads are fine as long as both you and your partner have been to the same class, and can both remember the move, and can both remember the signal. But

What if the lady doesn't see the signal, or hear the verbal lead?
What if the lady has never been to the class where you were taught the signal?
What if the lady doesn't speak english?
What if the man has such a strong accent that you can't understand?
What if moves are given different names in different parts of the country, or different countries?

I scratched my leg once while dancing - the lady thought it was a signal for a drop. And she did!

Relying on signals and verbal leads can help beginners and intermediate dancers. They are easier to learn, and easier to teach. But ultimately they are like training wheels on a bicycle - you can't advance if you keep them on. If you learn how to lead/follow, you can dance with far more people.

David

[Emma]

What if the lady doesn't see the signal, or hear the verbal lead?
..then she'll miss it. No biggie.
What if the lady has never been to the class where you were taught the signal?
I thought all Ceroc signals were the same...?
What if the lady doesn't speak english?
Then she won't understand, obviously.
What if the man has such a strong accent that you can't understand?
See above.
What if moves are given different names in different parts of the country, or different countries?
I thought Ceroc was supposed to be standardised?

I scratched my leg once while dancing - the lady thought it was a signal for a drop. And she did!
Poor her! I hope she was OK!!

Relying on signals and verbal leads can help beginners and intermediate dancers. They are easier to learn, and easier to teach. But ultimately they are like training wheels on a bicycle - you can't advance if you keep them on. If you learn how to lead/follow, you can dance with far more people.
Ceroc often relies on signals, doesn't it? How would you lead a tunnel or a neck break without the signal?

Actually, perhaps I need to clarify. When I said I liked an occasional hint I didn't mean someone barking the name of the move in my ear. That's no help to anyone (especially when it's got one of those ridiculous seven-word meaningless Ceroc names!!). Really I was thinking the rare occasion when a very good dancer leads a less experienced lady by telling her what she needs to do with her feet. This has happened to me a couple of times - someone clearly far more experienced than me has taken the trouble to tell me what I should be doing rather than bark names at me that I don't recognise or just lead me into moves that I don't know. Thus I get taught new moves whilst still enjoying the dance. Fantastic. It's what it's all about for me.

...crikey, I didn't mean to write an essay!! :sorry

[DavidB]

This is a very personal view of dancing, and I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. If some men like signals, and their partners can follow them, I'm not going to stop them. It is purely my own experience that leading is more rewarding than signalling. These are my reasons why...

My main aim in dancing it to have fun. For that to happen only takes 4 things
- a reasonable floor (something between ice and glue)
- liking the music
- feeling safe (ie someone is not going to take my head off doing an aerial)
- letting my partner enjoy herself

I can't do anything about the floor, other than not go back to that venue.
I can't do much about the music unless I start DJing (way too much hassle)
If someone starts doing lifts near me, I'll just move away. (They will grow up eventually...)
The only thing I can really change is how much my partner enjoys herself.

My impression of what ladies like in dancing is based on what they say, how they look, how they 'feel', and whether they dance with me again. And my impression is that ladies like to look good while they dance. More importantly ladies don't like being made to look bad while they dance.

Spinning a lady who doesn't like spinning looks bad. Dragging a beginner through complicated moves looks bad. And too many missed moves make a couple look bad.

Most of the ladies I dance with I've never met before. I don't know how long they have danced, how good they are, where or what they have learnt, or what signals they know. But if I stick to moves that I can lead, it doesn't matter what they know - I can dance with them.

Most normal moves that rely on signals can be led. A neck break is simply a first move with a hand change. Other moves rely on the simplest signal around - asking for the lady's other hand. Anything beyond that I can't remember the signals! If I could guarantee that every lady knew every signal that I could learn, I wouldn't mind learning a few more, but I don't think I can guarantee that. However virtually every lady I've danced with has been able to follow a lead, and I know I should be able to lead every move I can do. (That doesn't mean to say I always lead everything properly!)

Yes Ceroc is standardised, but not everyone learns Ceroc. There are a lot of different organisations that teach Modern Jive, and I would doubt that they all use the same names or signals. There are also many other styles of dancing that follow the basics of leading and following. I would like to be able to dance with anyone, not just Ceroc dancers.

(As a leader I have the option of not using signals. Unfortunately a follower doesn't.)

David

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by DavidB
My main aim in dancing it to have fun. For that to happen only takes 4 things
- a reasonable floor (something between ice and glue)
- liking the music
- feeling safe (ie someone is not going to take my head off doing an aerial)
- letting my partner enjoy herself

David

I like this.

I was thinking how I try to let my partner enjoy herself. Amonst other obvious things, I do this by responding to what you can determine are her needs or likes. You are quite right not to triple spin a lady who does not like it (or dip a lady who has expressed a preference).

What I also tend to do is to "feel" how the lady is following my signals. If she is getting every one right (ie our "dialects" or Modern Jive seem similar) then I will increase the complexity including adding in special footwork with or without the "dreaded whisper" until I have got her pitch and then probably slacken off a bit and enjoy the rest of the dance or two. This way I am giving the lady a dance inside her ability and confort zone but exercising her talent too (assuming of course that she is not one of those that is way ahead of me!). After all one can tell immediately if you are dancing with a beginner (hand is shaking!) or someone who does not like sultry moves (she created her distance on the wiggles), and an intermediate (can do a neck break or pretzel or something like that).

So we just need to respond with our lead to her response!", and I think that this is possible even if we have never danced with the lady before.

[Basil Brush]

I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self, so you ought not to push with so much force, Mr Jiveaholic!!

If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thrice!

jolly good

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self,

True enough, but you can turn a lady 3 times (although even that might be difficult with paws like yours...)

(I talk about a lady spinning when I let go of her, and turning when I keep hold of her hand. No idea if this is the correct terminology in Ceroc).

If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thrice

The effect would be similar to dancing with a lady who has very long hair tied into a ponytail. You know who I'm talking about...

David

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
I can't triple spin the lady, whether she wanted it or not! The triple spin is generated by her good self, so you ought not to push with so much force, Mr Jiveaholic!!

If someone triple-spun me, my bush would surely whip their bits thrice!

jolly good

????
I think all I said was "You are quite right not to triple spin a lady who does not like it (or dip a lady who has expressed a preference)"

Who talked about "force"? Spins are initiated by holding the hand up high. The lady uses your hand to rebound into a spin. If the man keeps his hand up high then she ought to continue spinning. Yes she needs to compensate for friction, but the energy can come from either your hand moving round slightly (yes it is allowed for multiple spins) or from her own footwork.

Force is never needed.

There is also some ambiguity in whether a triple spin is just three spins or one three times as fast!

P.S> I've only ever managed a double spin (with a concenting lady)