Injured by a drop

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Gus

............a well known individual asked her to dance. Knowing his rep she explicitly told him NO DROPS because of her shoulder .... to which his response was to tell her "its all in the lead" and proceed to do a major drop on her............

I once did a 'seducer' by a well known and experienced dancer, who pulled me up too quickly - I had whiplash pains for about 2 weeks after that.

Being a big girl , I would normally always say no when a lead puts me into a 'drop' position (not that it happens very often for the same reason )

BTW - I luuuuuuuuv leans

[Jive Brummie]

Name and shame......NAME AND SHAME!!!

JB x x

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

Name and shame......NAME AND SHAME!!!

Would love to but thats not quite cricket dear chap

The point I was trying to make is over and above the usual rules about drops (see Pete Phillips excellent Does and Dont that should be available at ALL venues).

The perpetrator is an instructor and so has no defence re ignorance of technique or ettiquette ... the point is that a male lead TOTALY ignored and explicit instruction from his partner. The fact that there are still dancers like this on the circuit (and they STILL get invited to teach) drives me nuts. To my knowldeg only one such offender has been banned in the North West (and he's now been let back in) .

Where does the buck stop? Are franchisees/venue managers just ignoring the problem or are people too afraid to complain? Question, out all the 1000's of dancers in Scotland, know anyone who has been cautioned for dangerous dancing ... or doesnt the problem exist up North?

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by SwingSwingSwing

Found an interesting article on Planet Jive this week. A dancer who sustained a serious injury while being "dropped".

See http://www.planetjive.co.uk

SwingSwingSwing

A similar note for aerials:

Girls dies in Jive accident

I did Martin Eaden's ('scuse any misspelling!) non-strength aerials workshop at Southport in May. It was (imho) excellent.

As well as pairing couples off, in order that they can look out for each other, he also had 2 or 3 aerial "police", whose job seemed to be to dive into any situation at all that had any suspicion of even approaching any danger, minor or major!


At the time, it seemed a little molly-coddling and patronising. In retrospect, it was very sensible and wise!

I don't think that I'd do another aerials workshop without at least one or two aerial police present!!

Ian

[LilyB]

Originally Posted by Gus

.... The perpetrator is an instructor and so has no defence re ignorance of technique or ettiquette ...

You are, no doubt, suggesting that all instructors are fully knowledgeable in technique and etiquette?

I think you are sadly mistaken there!

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by jivecat

Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here but might help to avoid some of the problems mentioned on this thread.

Nicky Haslam's company Ceroc & Modern Jive in Sydney have a system of blue & gold cards which grant you entrance into special higher level class, which seems to work very well - although I think it would take me a while to be brave enough to ask for assement - although I have been assured it is painless.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

Dave

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

Nooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
Peter

I have always been taught that the girl should have her arms straight and that the guy should keep his arms bent - and not allow his hands to go below his waist - no matter what his height - to ensure that the lady doesn't hit the floor. (if you have a dancer partner this can be changed - as i know my dance partner straightens his arms sometimes - but he knows that i won't hit the floor)

i find that if my arms are bent in a ballroom drop it is harder to maintain the correct body tension and line and in some cases feel pressure on my lower back.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by jivecat

Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right).

For Ceroc and Modern Jive, anyone can join the normal intermediate class, there are occasional Intermediate/Advanced classes which anyone can join but have a separate rotation for people with an Intermediate/Advanced card, and even less frequent Advanced classes where you must have an Intermediate/Advanced card to join, or an Advanced card to join the Advanced rotation.

For Ceroc Australia there's something similar, with the addition of a "Freestyler" card which is (loosely, I think) required before you can join the normal intermediate class.

None of these things are very strictly policed, but they do hopefully make people stop and think before launching into classes which they probably won't cope with.

[Claire S]

I was put into a drop last night by two separate men & I was TOTALLY unprepared for it!
They were different drops so I didn't even see it coming the 2nd time.
I've only been dancing for 5 weeks & I hadn't danced with either man before.
In both cases they were done before I realised what was happening (I was just following & suddenly I was nearly horizontal! )

It WAS quite exhilarating, but I was very aware that I had no idea what I was doing.
I would have much preferred to have been taught the move & be dancing with someone I know & trust, before attempting something like that.
I actually felt pretty safe with the first man, just a bit vulnerable, but I was already feeling quite uncomfortable with the second & pulling me over backwards & catching me didn't help.
I'll not dance with him again.

A friend was with me for her first class last night & it happened to her too.
I hope it doesn't put her off... if it had happened to me in my first week I would definitely have thought twice about coming back.
It's not put me off because I'm already hooked, but I will be a little more careful with my dance partners from now on.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Claire S

A friend was with me for her first class last night & it happened to her too.
I hope it doesn't put her off... if it had happened to me in my first week I would definitely have thought twice about coming back.
It's not put me off because I'm already hooked, but I will be a little more careful with my dance partners from now on.

How is this happening? Men should not be doing drops with beginner women, especially not in the first week! I know there probably isn't much point in giving off on this forum as the guys on here have more sense, but we must all make the effort to spread the word that a man should check with the woman first if she is happy with drops if he has never danced with her before. (If he has and she has been OK with them in the past but doesn't want to do any due to an injury etc, then I think she should say to him, otherwise its up to the man to check first.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Lynn

How is this happening? Men should not be doing drops with beginner women, especially not in the first week!

Old question again ... what are the franchisees/venue manager/teachers doing about it?? Shouldnt be too hard to work out where Claire S was. Were the incidents reported? Was one of them our serial dropper?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gus

Old question again ... what are the franchisees/venue manager/teachers doing about it??

Clearly nothing that is any use whatsoever.

And before franchisees and venue managers start flaming me because they have their teachers mention during the classes how important it is not to do this kind of thing - it clearly is not working.

I would be surprised if I have been to a single even remotely busy freestyle in the last two years, where I haven't had to avoid kicking some poor lady in the head, because of some muppet that is so caught up with how much he's enjoying what he's doing that consideration for anyone except himself is thrown to the winds. And there's a good chance that if he's so inconsiderate as to put his partner's head in the way of people's feet, he's also doing the drops unsafely

The message simply is not getting through. And it won't, as long as the organisers tacitly take the view that the problem isn't serious enough to adopt any really strong-arm tactics.

For that is what would be needed to get through to the offenders - they are already so inconsiderate that the danger and selfishness of their actions just doesn't occur to them, so a gentle, often humorous warning from the stage, during a class they may not have taken part in, will be like water off a duck's back.

Unfortunately, the culture of selfishness will take some shifting.

One idea is to have the organiser/franchisee or his representative actively watch for the offenders, and go up to them during the dance and warn them. Then ban then if they reoffend. There are all sorts of variants of this - if there are lots of people doing it the music can be stopped and a strong warning given out for instance. This happened once at Hipsters when someone was knocked unconscious. But even that will only fix things for a short while.

Draconian? Well yes. It will probably cost some good will, and maybe some numbers.

It all depends on whether the culture change is seen as important enough, and whether the price is payable.

Chris

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Gary

For Ceroc and Modern Jive, anyone can join the normal intermediate class, there are occasional Intermediate/Advanced classes which anyone can join but have a separate rotation for people with an Intermediate/Advanced card, and even less frequent Advanced classes where you must have an Intermediate/Advanced card to join, or an Advanced card to join the Advanced rotation.

For Ceroc Australia there's something similar, with the addition of a "Freestyler" card which is (loosely, I think) required before you can join the normal intermediate class.

Thanks, Gary and Yliander for your replies. It sounds a bit complicated but should have a lot of appeal for those, such as myself, with Girl Guide mentalities. The other 99.9% would take some convincing. There's quite enough bitching about who's better than who as it is, not to mention hotshotism, without the added complication of teachers awarding grades. I can imagine lots of people storming off in a huff if they didn't get the result they felt they deserved (probably me). Does this ever happen, as far as you know? Or do people totally trust the judgement and integrity of the teachers who administer the system?

P.S. I've just looked "hotshotism" up in the Jivecat Modern Dictionary of Dance Terminology and it is definitely there.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by Yliander

I have always been taught that the girl should have her arms straight and that the guy should keep his arms bent - and not allow his hands to go below his waist - no matter what his height - to ensure that the lady doesn't hit the floor. (if you have a dancer partner this can be changed - as i know my dance partner straightens his arms sometimes - but he knows that i won't hit the floor)

i find that if my arms are bent in a ballroom drop it is harder to maintain the correct body tension and line and in some cases feel pressure on my lower back.

I agree in an ideal world the lady could/should rely on the guy to keep his arms bent and correctly support the her, unfortunatly we are not in an ideal world and all to often the guy learns from watching other dancers or is not taught properly, IMHO the lady should do whatever she can to support herself and add to her safety, if she extends her arms fully and the guy does the same she will hit the floor and if her head is tipped back.............ouch! So thats why I advice the ladies to keep her arms in unless she knows her partner is a safe dancer with this move
LL

[Gary]

Originally Posted by jivecat

... I can imagine lots of people storming off in a huff if they didn't get the result [going for a Intermediate/Advanced "certification"] they felt they deserved (probably me). Does this ever happen, as far as you know? Or do people totally trust the judgement and integrity of the teachers who administer the system? ...

Some folks get upset when they think they deserve an I/A card and don't get one. The standard applied has been a little uneven because all the I/A teachers can hand out cards, and they have different standards, and/or different levels of resistance to "aww, please?!". As a guy having a card or not makes not a great deal of difference to me, but there's a significant difference for the girls between the I/A line and the "not I/A" line (as well as your standard ego issues).

I'm very glad that I am not involved in handing out the cards.

[MartinHarper]

We're told by the teacher to not to drops when the floor is crowded.
The floor is never more crowded than during an intermediate class.
We're taught to do drops during the intermediate class.

Anyone recognise that picture?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

We're told by the teacher to not to drops when the floor is crowded.
The floor is never more crowded than during an intermediate class.
We're taught to do drops during the intermediate class.

Oh yes ... and then we have teachers who dont think a dance is complete without the woman spending most of her time horizontal. Isnt it time for teachers to take responsibility and lead by example (YES .. I KNOW that most do)

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Gus

Oh yes ... and then we have teachers who dont think a dance is complete without the woman spending most of her time horizontal. Isnt it time for teachers to take responsibility and lead by example (YES .. I KNOW that most do)

I do find it quite amusing when the dance ends and 90% of the women in the room are draped across their partners knee! Perhaps it could be pointed out by teachers that there are different, and more original, ways of ending a dance satisfactorily?

[jivecat]

[quote=Claire S]It WAS quite exhilarating, but I was very aware that I had no idea what I was doing.
I would have much preferred to have been taught the move & be dancing with someone I know & trust, before attempting something like that.
[quote]

I don't usually get this feeling with drops any more - if I'm really worried about the leader I can always resist, or keep most of my weight on my leg so he can't carry out the move. I know this is very naughty but I don't see what else there is to do if I don't trust the guy. And the distance to fall is quite small, as long as I don't get my head kicked in on the way down. I have been dropped once, by an inexperienced chap whose puny legs failed completely under my moderate bulk. Luckily the damage was purely to my dignity - though it would have been different if I'd had a long-standing back problem.

I was at a class on Friday where the intermediates were being taught a nose-dive (with the ladies lunging into it , to protect themselves, as the teacher explained) which converted into a ball room hold and drop - I hope I've got the names right. A really exhilarating combination when led well, but not achievable by 75% of people doing the class. I dropped out after a while as it seemed so pointless to be standing there explaining to people that I didn't want to drop into the drop we'd just been told to do- because I didn't trust the guy. Well, I left that last bit out.

I get more frightened, more insecure and feel more at risk of injury by partners who try to get me to do aerials, jumps and other complex moves by barking a sudden instruction and then when I don't get it stopping in the middle of a crowded dance floor to "teach" it to me. I'd love to learn these moves - but only in a systematic and disciplined way with a partner that I trust. My concern about jumps or aerials is that if the landing is poor, or off-balance (highly likely in a move I have no preparation for) then the high impact is likely to damage my knees or ankles. Not to mention the ever-present risk of it looking absolutely dire. Just don't do this to me, fellas. (Not that I think forumites would!)

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by jivecat

I do find it quite amusing when the dance ends and 90% of the women in the room are draped across their partners knee! Perhaps it could be pointed out by teachers that there are different, and more original, ways of ending a dance satisfactorily? ...

I'm usually so surprised and delighted when my dance partner doesn't end with a lean or drop, that I often spontaneously congratulate them! Good point to get the teachers to pass on other ideas - maybe a whole class dedicated to learning one move with a whole series of different endings/poses to finish a dance - none of them a drop!

Originally Posted by jivecat

I was at a class on Friday where the intermediates were being taught a nose-dive (with the ladies lunging into it , to protect themselves, as the teacher explained) which converted into a ball room hold and drop - I hope I've got the names right. A really exhilarating combination when led well, but not achievable by 75% of people doing the class. ...

I wouldn't do the nose-dive with anyone, not even Marc. And I don't want to do it, thank you, no matter how many times a guy tells me 'it's easy' and they can teach it to me no problem.
Rachel