Injured by a drop

[Divissima]

Ouch! Chickadee, you sound as though you've had some nasty experiences. I hope your foot gets better quickly. Like Jivecat, I have to say I've developed a tendency to refuse or thwart a drop or seducer with men I don't trust to protect my safety (either because I've had a bad experience with them in the past or because the dancefloor is very crowded). Some men I trust implicitly even on a crowded dancefloor, but it does take time to build up that kind of trust.

I have an extremely good memory for faces so I usually know if I've met or danced with someone before - and I have an excellent memory for people I've either had a fantastic dance experience with or those who have caused me pain. The last time (about a year ago) I asked someone not to drop me at all because I wanted to protect my back, he told me he could drop me safely and put me into a drop but left his knee in the way Needless to say I won't be dancing with him ever again. These days I would almost certainly try to resist drops with someone I've specifically asked not to drop me.

[Daisy Chain]

I quite agree with Jivecat and Chickadee about drop injuries. I've also been injured by that ghastly move called The Windmill.

We had a right to right hand hold and my partner yelled "Windmill" at me. I hadn't been dancing very long but since I knew this move, I confidently moved to wards his right armpit. At the last minute, he swapped to his left hand and did a mirror image of the move that I was expecting. The violent yank as he hauled me across to his left armpit pulled something in my chest that night. It must have been the muscles attaching the ribs to the sternum (?) and it was very painful. Couldn't lean forward without squealing for weeks.

Daisy

(A Fragile Little Flower)

[Gojive]

Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!

Perhaps a "constructive suggestions" thread on the issues?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gojive

Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!

Perhaps a "constructive suggestions" thread on the issues?

I couldn't agree more. It's a subject we've returned to again and again, though, even during the short year I've hung out here.

There are really only three things I can think of, and it boils down to the fact that it's invariably the girls that are the victims of both drop injuries and unwanted groping.


So to the girls, I'd say this:

1. Don't dance with them once you know what they do. Sounds obvious, but lots of ladies somehow seem to think that they're being bad by refusing to dance with these guys.

2. Complain to the offender. Loudly. Emphatically. Stomp off the dance floor. Whatever it takes, make it completely clear how much you object to what's just happened. Whatever else you do, do not tolerate it with that pained smile I see so often on nearby ladies' faces. The message does not come across to the insensitive git that's just hurt or molested you as the disapproval you intend.

3. Complain to the organiser. They need evidence to act, and so the more complaints they get about the (usually serial) offenders, the more easily they'll be able to act.


Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

and my partner yelled "Windmill" at me

Incidentally, I wonder if I might hazard a little suggestion.

The correct response to such a verbal lead/signal from a guy you do not know, and with whom you haven't discussed the meaning of such signals is:

"No"

There is no move in freestyle between partners that don't know one another's dancing very well indeed that should be led at all if it can't be led simply by leading properly.

Chris

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Incidentally, I wonder if I might hazard a little suggestion.

The correct response to such a verbal lead/signal from a guy you do not know, and with whom you haven't discussed the meaning of such signals is:

"No"

There is no move in freestyle between partners that don't know one another's dancing very well indeed that should be led at all if it can't be led simply by leading properly.

Chris

It is, after all, a free world ... last time I looked!

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Gojive

Together with the problem of "Inappropriate touching/moves", I strongly believe we need to start taking a much firmer and more positive approach to stamp this stuff out of the MJ world, before it's too late!

Funnily enough a certain gentleman will be reciveing a little email from me pointing out just such a "firmer approach". What is less funny is that a certain dance organistaion wont do anything about it!

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by Gus

Funnily enough a certain gentleman will be reciveing a little email from me pointing out just such a "firmer approach". What is less funny is that a certain dance organistaion wont do anything about it!

Where at??? What venue?? Name it!! Name it!!

[composure regained!]

.... errrrr ..... ok .... carry on then!

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

.....it's invariably the girls that are the victims of both drop injuries and unwanted groping.

Not so, as regards the injuries, anyway. I'm sure there have been a number of mentions on the forum of guys wishing to protect themselves from jive-caused or aggravated injuries, especially to the shoulder, though not, admittedly, caused by drops. The blame is usually placed on yanking ladies.

So to the girls, I'd say this:

1. Don't dance with them once you know what they do. Sounds obvious, but lots of ladies somehow seem to think that they're being bad by refusing to dance with these guys.

You make things sound so black and white. But they're not. It might be reasonable to do as you say when the culprit is a dyed-in-the-wool, arrogant person who will not see what he is doing wrong and is not receptive to teaching. But things are not usually as simple as that. The guy who dropped me was an inexperienced dancer led to attempt drops with the implicit approval of teachers even though he had not mastered the basic technique of doing them safely. No harm done, on that occasion. He's a nice lad, enjoys his dancing and is steadily improving. I'm happy to take the risk of him dropping me again, though I'm much more vigilant when I dance with him now. I could argue that I was in some sense culpable because I didn't take the chance of correcting him and helping him at the time, because I find it difficult to know how and when to intervene tactfully. (Thanks, Trish, for practical advice given somewhere or other!) But to refuse to dance with him again? I think that would be insufferable behaviour on my part.
And what do I do if the guy who has put me at risk is someone who I usually enjoy dancing with? Congenial dance partners (for women) are not generally so plentiful that we can pick and choose the cream of the bunch.

2. Complain to the offender. Loudly. Emphatically. Stomp off the dance floor. Whatever it takes, make it completely clear how much you object to what's just happened. Whatever else you do, do not tolerate it with that pained smile I see so often on nearby ladies' faces. The message does not come across to the insensitive git that's just hurt or molested you as the disapproval you intend.

I agree that part of the problem is that women do not speak up clearly enough about what is acceptable for them on the dance floor. We all need to do this, though not necessarily in a hostile way, and we need to be backed up by clear and unequivocal support from the teacher during classes. Many men just don't realise that they may be causing a problem and would be mortified to learn that and should be given the chance to change. Also what one follower hates may have been perfectly acceptable to lots of others, as I've discovered when comparing notes with friends.

3. Complain to the organiser. They need evidence to act, and so the more complaints they get about the (usually serial) offenders, the more easily they'll be able to act.

Chris

Only when other avenues have been tried, surely.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by jivecat

I agree that part of the problem is that women do not speak up clearly enough about what is acceptable for them on the dance floor. We all need to do this, though not necessarily in a hostile way, and we need to be backed up by clear and unequivocal support from the teacher during classes. Many men just don't realise that they may be causing a problem and would be mortified to learn that and should be given the chance to change.

I agree with this, and all the rest of your post that I've snipped.

I'm just getting increasingly exasperated with the never-ending series of threads we get here about about how the ladies are constantly being tormented with drop-injuries, groping, stinking blokes and dripping bodies.

But we never, ever hear about how someone has tactfully had a word with the guy in question**, discovered his benign intent, and brought about his wonderful reform and conversion from ignorance to awareness.

Nor do we hear about the ones where their nastiness is exposed and they are rightly shunned as a consequence.

I might say that I have total sympathy with the ladies' plight - they have far less control over the content of a dance than guys do - and when I dance I pay a great deal of attention to making it as right as I can for them.

But I know that not all people are nice, and I've witnessed on many occasions the suffering of ladies that for whatever reason don't seem able to say "enough is enough".


Of course I'm not suggesting nasty, savage reactions at the first offence, especially when said offence is out of character. A gentle hint, for the nice guys, is all that will be needed.

And of course you're right - reacting to unnacceptable behaviour should be a sliding scale, appropriate to the scale of the offence.

When I talk in the black and white terms that I sometimes do, I'm talking about the cases that really are black and white. Where guys blatantly grope, force ladies painfully into drops despite requests not to do any drops, etc, etc.

In the greyer cases, obviously a more measured response is appropriate, and I've never denied that.

Chris

** except when I did it, funnily enough, as did our own Sheepie in different circumstances. I don't know of any other instances reported here.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I'm just getting increasingly exasperated with the never-ending series of threads we get here about about how the ladies are constantly being tormented with drop-injuries, groping, stinking blokes and dripping bodies.

Have you not noticed yet - there are three types of thread: complaining, lovie and nitt-picking obssesion.
Occasionally you get a genuine "nice" one without the lovie-ism, but people like to moan; and this forum is more likley to have understanding ears than anywhere else. The issues raised are more to do with human nature and society than dancing - they involve too much effort, too draconian measures or too uncivilised actions for most people to resolve. If your ears are tired of listening to the tales of woe, perhaps you could offer a shoulder instead?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

The issues raised are more to do with human nature and society than dancing - they involve too much effort, too draconian measures or too uncivilised actions for most people to resolve.

Yep, agree with that.

Except that often, the resolutions aren't as difficult as they seem. It just makes me sad that people seem to prefer to put up with all sorts of horrible situations (and moan about them ), rather than put even a little bit of effort into some actual solutions.

The actual solutions are there for the taking, and dancing would be a lot more fun for the vast majority of us if even a small proportion of them were put into practice.

If your ears are tired of listening to the tales of woe, perhaps you could offer a shoulder instead?

I do this too... but most effectively in person

Chris

[Sparkles]

I think it's hard to say something to the guy you're dancing with, but I'm not sure why that should be so really.
I've had a word on a couple of occasions with guys dancing with other people near me that were likely to cause damage, and have refused my partner drops and aerials on safety grounds before, but to actually comment to my partner seems difficult for some reason. Maybe I feel some responsibility to be polite if they have asked me to dance (or some other such nonesense excuse). I don't quite know how to explain it.
It takes a lot of guts to say to someone 'I think what you're doing is wrong', and for some of us shy, sensitive little flowers (where's Daisy Chain when you need her?) it can be quite a daunting prospect to say something to a guy, and even more so if you believe them to be a 'better' dancer than yourself...
I agree that women should be more clear about what is and isn't acceptable, but it's one of those 'easier said than done' scenarios I'm afraid.
S. x

[Gus]

Curious ... who is teaching all these drops?

The main sources would seem to be;

• Focused workshops (a la Peter Phillips)
• Part of wider based workshop
• Instructors teaching from stage
• Something seen on a video
• One of the punters showing another punter

I've always been against drops been taught in lessons if for no other reaons, no matter how well explained, Joe Public will find a way to do it wrong. Workshops are the best solution ... but given the amount of workshops (very few) and the amount of drop-monsters (very many) someone, somewhere must be teaching these people. So ... do you stop people been taught or do you try to educate them better?

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by jivecat

Not so, as regards the injuries, anyway....................................Also what one follower hates may have been perfectly acceptable to lots of others, as I've discovered when comparing notes with friends.

Totally agree here.......a very good male friend of mine injured his back on Saturday at the Beach Ballroom, trying to rescue his partner at the time, who decided to throw herself into a drop and yes, he does know that he should just have let her fall, but human nature meant he couldn't do that

It constantly amazes me that a lot of ladies are perfectly happy to go along with dips, drops etc when the floor is plainly far too busy for them. It also amazes me the reaction you get from some partners when you take evasive action and don't comply.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It just makes me sad that people seem to prefer to put up with all sorts of horrible situations (and moan about them ), rather than put even a little bit of effort into some actual solutions.

Ahhh... but, Chris - there are some people who post their experiences to share them, talk about the feelings involved, and build relationships with others who have experienced similar things. Sometimes, it's just good to find out that it's not just you who has the problem.

And, of course, there are also people who hear a problem & immediately jump in to fix it. I think it also has something to do with being able to read a map.....

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lou

Ahhh... but, Chris - there are some people who post their experiences to share them, talk about the feelings involved, and build relationships with others who have experienced similar things. Sometimes, it's just good to find out that it's not just you who has the problem.

Yeah, I take your point. Gadget's comment stung hard enough for me not to be able to miss that

And, of course, there are also people who hear a problem & immediately jump in to fix it. I think it also has something to do with being able to read a map.....

You'll be quoting "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" at me next

Please nooooooo

I accept that it's a bit bloky to want to fix it. And maybe that it's a bit girly to do nothing and just feeeeeeeeeeeel baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

But isn't there a middle ground? Wouldn't you rather not have the problem in the first place? It's not like some things where there just isn't a solution. In this case, there is, and as well as sympathy surely it would be nice if the whole dance experience could be improved across the board.

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

surely it would be nice if the whole dance experience could be improved across the board.

On reflection, maybe I'm just completely barking to bang on about all this at all. I don't stink, yank, drip or perv (well, except when required to, in the latter case ), so maybe in campaigning like this I'm just shooting myself in the foot.

Yeah, guys... stink away.... then all the girls will wanna dance with meeeeeeeeee

Chris