Injured by a drop

[SwingSwingSwing]

Found an interesting article on Planet Jive this week. A dancer who sustained a serious injury while being "dropped".

See http://www.planetjive.co.uk

SwingSwingSwing

[Gus]

Took the liberty of copying the pertinent points from the PlanetJive website

The partner of modern jive promoter Colin Shaul has been left with a serious back injury after a rogue dancer threw her into a "drop" move.

Now Colin is appealing for an end to dancefloor "madness", and drops expert Peter Phillips is offering free lessons in a bid to improve safety.

Colin Shaul's partner Colleen was injured by a visitor to one of the LeRoc dance nights the couple run in Surrey. "It wasn't a member of ours," said Colin. "It was a visitor to one of our dances, and he did it after he was told Colleen didn't do drops. I cannot and never will understand men even doing these moves on crowded floors. I am already aware of many girls who have long term back problems. A few years back a male idiot did a drop on a girl placing his knee as a brake in her back. The result was a broken vertebrae. And it's likely to happen again."

Colin is urging male dancers to take more care with drops. "The message needs to go out before something serious happens. Please do something to help control the madness that's going on out there," he appealed. "Let's keep modern jive fun."

Moron
Drops expert Peter Phillips condemned the dancer who injured Colleen as a "moron who threw her into drop without a thought for her welfare". Peter is preparing a dos and don'ts guide for drops and seducers, which will be free to all organisers.
He added: "I am also prepared to give a free drops and seducers class with emphasis on safety, at any venue, for any organiser throughout the South and beyond

Nottingham jive teacher John Sweeney said: "Many men try to perform drops without understanding the basic safety aspects, and many ladies who haven't been taught how to protect themselves during a drop finding themselves being forced and twisted into drops by men who are relying on strength instead of technique. But it is not just the men. A lady who is lacking in technique and who throws too much weight in the wrong direction at the wrong time can badly damage a man's back. Like Pete, I perform and teach an extensive range of drops and seducers and would, likewise, be prepared to teach a free lesson at your weekly evening class if it will help everyone to do drops more safely."

Couple of points;

1) This is not the first such incident. IÕm aware of something very similar when an independent dance teacher was allegedly dropped badly by a senior instructor of a well know large dance organisation. Legal proceedings ensued (IÕve no idea of the outcome).

2) The offers from drop ÔexpertsÕ to teach safe drops is encouraging but there are a few questions ... like who classifies ÔexpertsÕ? IÕve seen many drops workshops by ÔexpertsÕ and have seem some horrendous drops taught with little real understanding of what will happen on the dancefloor.

Put it this way, Ceroc teacher training is regarded as the best Modern Jive training bar none ... and even we are not allowed to just go and start teaching drops striaght off! I have seem complex double neck drops taught in mass classes to dancers who I wouldnÕt have trusted to catch a pudding never mind a badly trained woman.

In short, if you want to learn drops, PLEASE consult your Ceroc teacher first. They may not be the best person to teach drops but they will always know someone who can (I only teach beginner and intermediate drops myself, I leave the advanced stuff to experts like Jump'n'Jive). Remember, Ceroc teachers are professionally trained by the CTA, many so called teachers are self-taught. There is an infinity of difference between being able to do a drop and being able to teach one well ... who would you trust.

Please understand that IÕm not dissing instructors like Peter and John. They are both accomplished dancers in their own right. What I am saying is that get advice from your local CTA teacher first!

[Amanda]

Thanks to both of you for the above. This is a very important subject that deserves to be highlighted. Sadly for me this is an all too familiar story... I have serious back problems and suffer significant pain 24 hours a day.

Sometimes a really good dance can turn into a nightmare in a split second. Despite clear safety instructions being given out at every class where drops/seducers etc are taught, I have occasionally found that basic safety advice is ignored and I have found myself being thrown towards the ground, without warning, in quite a terrifying manner.

Naturally injuries have arisen from these situations and these have cost me dear in Osteopathy fees and heartache. I appreciate that for many it can be hard to imagine that one second's carelessness and lack of consideration could possibly result in their partner being unable to walk shortly after a dance move, but it can happen.

For obvious reasons I NEVER do any drops, seducers - even leans are too painful. I want to feel safe and secure every time I walk onto the dancefloor with a new partner. I always let dance partners know about my problems (to the point of boredom but this stems from a very real terror of something going wrong...) but sadly the message does not always seem to penetrate.

There have been occasions when I have been on the receiving end of a 'macho' response to my request along the lines of "You'll be OK with me..." From a medical point of view I will never be OK with anyone - even a slight jar can dislodge a vertebra.

Amanda

[John S]

This is a really serious subject, and needs to be addressed.

There's also been a good discussion of it in the DJ Booth under "Finishing Flourish" - that thread should be read along with this, to get the overall picture and the degree of concern that exists about thoughtless (and potentially dangerous) behaviour.

[Gus]

The question was raised on one thread (I forget which) about the liability of the franchisee in the case of a drop through 'dangerous play'. If I remember what I've been told, if a Franchisee makes a constant attempt to stop dangerous play, then misses someone doing it, then they would be liable ... the logic was along the lines that if you clear your path of snow and someone slips then you are liable wheras if you do nothing then you are in the clear!

Again, this is mostly hearsay and there is probably no clear legal prescedent at the moment (and of course Scottish law can be significantly different to law in England and Wales)

Logic says that there should be an ongoing process of educating dancers as to ettiquete and reminding people what is and isn't acceptable. At my own venue I had no problem in going up to dancers on th floor and asking them to stop dancing that I thought was dangerous. Some people took exception but I left them with the choice of stopping or I'd stop them by escorting them from the premises .. their call.

I've found myslef in an uncomfortable positon at other ceroc venues where, though I'm a CTA teaher, I wasn't the resident teacher. I'd expect the venue manager to deal with the situation .. but that rarely happens (in fact once it was the Ceroc teacher and the venue manger doing the aerials!!)

So .. where does that leave the dancers? Dunno. Scott, Obi, Frank ... got any comments.


Please note, the above comments are my personal views, not as a CTA teacher.

[DavidB]

Sorry Franck and Gus - I think Ceroc must shoulder a lot of the blame for people doing drops, and doing them badly.

At the last 5 Ceroc intermediate classes I've been to, the teacher has taught a drop.

In all of these classes, the majority of the people in the class had real problems learning any of the dance moves. Many had done less than 5 beginners classes - indeed for one lady I spoke to, it was her first night!

In two of these classes, the teacher did say that you tell your partner if you didn't want to do the drop. But neither gave you chance to do this when rotating the class. The other classes just assumed that everyone would do the drop.

Only one teacher explicitly mentioned safety. He said "Please be careful doing this drop - you can get hurt". He didn't say how to be careful, or where the danger would arise. But at least it was more than the other classes.

All the teachers did show the men where to hold the lady. Unfortunately all of the classes were big, and you had no chance of seeing the teacher if you are at the back of the class. None of the teachers told the lady how to hold herself.

None of the teachers said anything about warming up. None of the teachers said anything about looking around to make sure you had room. None of the teachers gave any indication about when to do drops in the music.

And then people wonder why some intermediates think its normal to do a drop every 4 moves. It's what they are taught to do!!!

I know Ceroc are not the only people who teach drops. And they may very well be better trained than other teachers. But this standard of teaching drops falls well below what I would expect. More importantly it probably falls well below the standard a court would expect.

I understand that drops are very popular, and people still want to learn them. So please keep them out of classes, and teach them only in special workshops. And please keep them off a crowded dance floor. And please please please check with your partner first before doing any! I don't want to have to fork out a few pounds extra every time I go dancing to pay for the organiser's liability insurance. And I don't want to have any more ladies stop dancing for 6 months while they recover from injuries.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry Franck and Gus - I think Ceroc must shoulder a lot of the blame for people doing drops, and doing them badly.

At the last 5 Ceroc intermediate classes I've been to, the teacher has taught a drop.

Dave ... I guess that this is at London clubs. All CTA teachers are rained to teach drops ... BUT, these are regarded as restricted moves and most are NOT to be taught in class ("red moves"). The remainder may be taught in class but ALWAYS with an alternative ("orange moves") . It is drilled into us during training that drops should be taught with extreme caution.

I too must admit that I've been taught drops badly in a Ceroc class ... but even the worst 'Ceroc' drop I've been taught is an order of magnitude better than what is being taught by the cowboys on the open circuit. There are two indivduals especially in the North West (though one has had the good grace to retire before someone 'retired' him) who were the bane of my life. You could spot the poor unfortunate souls who had been to their lesons ... and more unfortunate was the awfull drops they were subjecting my poor ladies to.

In short .. if you see a Ceroc teacher teaching a drop badly, report him/her to Ceroc Dance HQ. It is in everyones best interests that Ceroc teachers maintain the high level of teaching that the CTA strives towards. Though I am no longer a member of the CTA I will alwys be gratefull for the gruelling training course I had to go through so that I could proudly regard myself as a CTA teacher.

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
I understand that drops are very popular, and people still want to learn them. So please keep them out of classes, and teach them only in special workshops.

Hi David,

You raise a lot of very good points re. safety while teaching drops.
This is one of my bug bears (sp?).
Drops are indeed very popular and often requested, and I reckon that not teaching them at all in a class context would be a shame. Especially since if you do not teach them, some people will attempt to do them without any training, which would result in more injuries.
However, safety and comfort must be the prime considerations. As Gus mentions, all CTA teachers will have received safety training, and all "dangerous" moves are described as such in a teacher's notes, with the proviso that if taught, there should be a suitable alternative move offered in the routine (ie a slow comb when teaching a Lambada comb).
The point about making sure that every time you change partner, the teacher should make sure everyone checks whether their new partner is happy to do the move (without stigma, ie the teacher should stress that there are many reasons why you might not want to do that move, and if you are getting tired you can change your mind, ie do the move a couple of times and then stop for a while).
Of course, I also agree that warming up should be mentionned (and practised during the class, ie teach the move towards the end of the class rather than at the start of the routine), and dance floor space will always be an issue, so remind all participants to only do the move when there is plenty of space (a quiet night or a very large venue), and only with partners whom you know have learnt that move and are happy to dance it with you.

If the above are not mentionned or heeded during a class, I would recommend you talk to the teacher expressing your concerns in the first instance, you can also talk to the Franchise owner about it (myself for Glasgow / Aberdeen) or Jean Harris (for Edinburgh Dundee) for example.
As Gus says, we strive to reach very high standards of teaching and need your feedback to maintain them.

Franck.

[Gus]

Guys,

previously mentioned an incident a few yaers ago that led to the involvement of legal parties against a Modern Jive instructor.

Managed to find out last weekend the outcome. The version of events I got (and I alwys realise that there are two sides) is that the injured party was told that she would un doubtedly win the prosecution, however, as the teacher wa being fully backed by hois dance organistion, the costs may not cover the legal expenses ..... so the case did not go to court. Pity, I hate to see the big guys win because they've got more muscle rather than they are right.

HOWEVER, the moral of the story guys is that you injure someone though throwing them into a dumb drop .... you could end up on the wrong side of a courtroom ... think about that the next time you feel the need to show off!

Oh ... by the way .... its not alwys the guys fault .... last Thursday I was dancing with (a very good) female dancer and just rested my hand on her nearest shoulder as I'd totaly blanked ... the next thing she's trying to drop on me!!!

She'd mistaken my 'lead' for the signal for a Robbie Dip (must admit I didn't know that move was widely known) ... but the signal for that is very different. Goes back to the key point of a drop ... ladies , if you ain't supported, you DON'T go down ... please

[Gus]

Time has come to resurrect this thread again.

Just come back from the Ribby weekender. One of my female mates has got a damaged right shoulder so has to be careful about who she dances with. She was in the Blues room where a well known individual asked her to dance. Knowing his rep she explicitly told him NO DROPS because of her shoulder .... to which his response was to tell her "its all in the lead" and proceed to do a major drop on her

The gnetlemen concerned knows who he is and I would like to take this opportunity to explain to the common masses why he thought he knew best. The lass concerned spent the following hours in agony

[Chicklet]

Originally Posted by Gus

I would like to

just so you don't get unfairly blamed here bud, did you type "him" with your invisible keys??????

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Chicklet

just so you don't get unfairly blamed here bud, did you type "him" with your invisible keys??????

DOH!! Not enough sleep...

OK ... I would like HIM to explain his logic ...

Is that better?

[MartinHarper]

The remainder may be taught in class but ALWAYS with an alternative ("orange moves").

How about teaching the safe version as standard, with the "orange move" as an alternative for people who like pain?

[Lounge Lizard]

following the incident at the top of this thread I offered FREE midweek drops class to any organisation south of the thames - no one was interested

Colin banned drops at one venue cos it had a small busy dance floor - so the dancers stopped going

I have been teaching drops since 1998 and found a new way to get injured over the weekend, a lady (who was ok with drops - and knew me) put her hand omto the floor in the middle of a low seducer....she stopped I did not, well not until I felt that sudden jarring in my lower back - I have fairly strong back muscles but it still hurt - I hate to think of the effect on a guy with a weak back
LL

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

I have been teaching drops since 1998 and found a new way to get injured over the weekend, a lady (who was ok with drops - and knew me) put her hand omto the floor in the middle of a low seducer....she stopped I did not, well not until I felt that sudden jarring in my lower back - I have fairly strong back muscles but it still hurt - I hate to think of the effect on a guy with a weak back.

Been there, done that. I don't think ladies realise how often the "hand down" isn't actually visible from the man's position. So we think there's lots of margin before reaching the ground - but we haven't taken into account the hand hidden by her body which is nearly 2 feet lower. Putting a hand down may give protection for some, but I find it's just a liability...

Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

Dave

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by DavidB

In all of these classes, the majority of the people in the class had real problems learning any of the dance moves. Many had done less than 5 beginners classes - indeed for one lady I spoke to, it was her first night!


David

Beginners often move on far too early for all sorts of challenging moves as well as drops. I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here but might help to avoid some of the problems mentioned on this thread.

I have also seen extremely complicated drops being taught to classes where the majority of people were having significant difficulty coping with the mechanics of basic moves. In fact, that's totally commonplace. But it's rare to find a teacher suggesting that people should sit out until they're ready for it, or entry to a class being restricted to a certain level and above (although I've noticed more recently). Again, such measures are likely to cause an outcry and are completely unworkable once people have parted with good money to attend a workshop.

The general rule at Ceroc classes is that people shouldn't try the intermediate class until they have been attending at least 6 weeks though that would still be too early for some people. I don't think it would cause too many problems for this to be more strictly enforced - people usually respect a system which they can perceive to have clear benefits and which is supported by more experienced dancers. Especially when the beginners are given something purposeful to do during the intermediate classes like a top-up class in a nearby room.

With regard to the lady adopting the correct body position to protect herself, and the man, and in order for the move to look good I think it requires a reasonable level of fitness. The advice I've heard is to keep the stomach muscles taut, which helps to avoid that "sack of potatoes" look and, I think, prevents the lady from being a dead weight on the man. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. My feeling is that I'd rather stick to moves that I can do well & with some elegance, within the limits of my fitness and physical ability- but this is not encouraged by Ceroc classes in general. But then Ceroc's profits might take a dip if three-quarters of the class were told to come back after they'd spent 3 months down the gym! There is a reason, after all, why professional dancers have bodies like hungry whippets.

Whenever I've been put into dodgy drop by someone I often say that they're not supposed to do them without permission - and they're amazed and clearly this has never occurred to them. So they're learning drops from somewhere without being given basic safety rules.

[John S]

Originally Posted by jivecat

I've read on the forum that in New Zealand/Aussie cerocers have to receive a seal of approval from their instructor as to when they are ready to move up to harder levels ( I hope I've got this right). I know the system is not likely to be popular here ................

Dunno whether the information about NZ/Oz is correct or not, but it does seem to me to be an excellent idea. At the venues I attend, I often see guys doing drops (a) in dangerous situations, ie crowded dancefloors and (b) with relatively inexperienced ladies - I think there's a "power/dominance" thing going on there somewhere!

Personally I'm not a great fan of drops apart from the simpler ones - I reckon the more complex ones, as well as lifts, are more about gymnastics than dancing, and are better suited to showcase-type situations, but if we must have them then I would welcome some formal arrangement for those who want to do them (ladies as well as men), eg satisfactory performance at a formal workshop where emphasis was put on safety and etiquette as well as technique.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Was wondering, what do you advise women to do with their 'load bearing' arms on drops (e.g. ballroom drop)? For nearly every drop, I find it is much much easier if the woman lets her arms go straight and just trusts the man to keep her off the floor, rather than if she tries to hold herself up. And yet I'm really hesitant to give "trust the man" as general advice...

Dave

Nooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
Peter

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

Nooooooo
dont agree with this
if the lady straightens her arms and the guy does the same she hits the floor (even with tall men) if she has her head back then she is possibly in a coma!
I teach the ladies keep their arms in at the start of the move and extend them during the move.
Peter

Thanks for the comment - I would have trusted the guy to not do that! I have even trusted the woman not to do that on occasion! But I would never put my head back...

Dave