To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

[TheTramp]

He'd probably been kicked out of bed for suggesting in another thread that it was ok for me to cut in while he was performing with Lily.....

Steve

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by DavidB
Glad to hear it. I keep wondering where this distinctive style came from in the first place

I believe it comes from the beginner instinct to keep rhythm, and if it isn't picked up early, it can become habit. I used to "march" as a beginner, until I trained for my first competition, and a couple of teachers intervened to improve my style.

[Jon L]

Moderators N.B. That third line should read

'I am a man and I only draw the semi circle when dancing with beginners' -please amend thanks
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This thread is aimed primarily at fellow intermediate/advanced brethren and honourable sisters who can dance the male part.

When I started ceroc/jive I was always taught to draw a semi circle as I stepped back.

After three years this habit is still with me, however I have come accross some better dancers who have told me there's no need now to draw the semi circle as I commence dancing to the record., so I am trying to reduce the size of the semi circle.

That said I still see Viktor doing it, but am I sure there are men who don't with regular ladies.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jon L
That said I still see Viktor doing it

Ah, but Viktor at Hipsters does the semicircle in the opposite direction to the way Ceroc teaches it. When I asked him about it he denied that it had anything to do with trademark issues, but instead felt more natural.

Having been to quite a few of his recent classes I'm inclined to agree... but who am I not to?

When I'm at Ceroc, I'll semi-circle the way they want it. When I'm in Viktor's class, I do it his way. When I'm in Amir's class I do no such thing.

I'm flexible like that.

Chris

[TheTramp]

I always felt that the semi-circle was a artificial device, merely to show the ladies in the class when you were about to start dancing, aimed mainly at beginners.

Once people have the 'feel' for dancing, then an extension and compression with the leading hand (which turns the movement into a rock-step (step back then forward)) is sufficient.

I didn't realise that people actually got onto the dance floor, faced their partners, waited for the beat in the music, and then started the dance with a semi-circle :sorry

Steve

PS. I'm not sure that I explained this very well, but it's sort of early, and I didn't sleep well last night

[Dan]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I didn't realise that people actually got onto the dance floor, faced their partners, waited for the beat in the music, and then started the dance with a semi-circle :sorry

They do and that's exactly the way that they are taught at Ceroc. The simple aids that are very useful to the beginners, who perhaps have little previous dance experience, have become part of the Ceroc Credo. Many non-Ceroc teachers, e.g. Nigel and Amir teach alternatives in order to wean dancers off these "fixation". Apart from the "small semicircle to the left for a left hand move and a small semicircle to the right for a right handed move etc. " business, there is also the "offer the hand, and the ladies grab it" routine. Non-ceroc teachers will teach leaders to do a simple return or better, a travelling return to collect the other hand and making the link more flowy and natural.
Having said all that I can understand the Ceroc basic of getting the ladies to understand their role on this dance dialogue. The same beginners must surely watch the top competition dancers and think - Oy, they missed a bit there!!

Andre

[Chris]

Originally posted by Jon L
That said I still see Viktor doing it, but am I sure there are men who don't with regular ladies

I would imagine that the semi-circle business maybe started as a simplification so that beginners didn't have to learn about frame - the step back is 'signalled' rather than led. To use a simple push maintains frame (assuming it's established in the first place) and allows for continuous and more exact leading of the follower's position IMO. The semi-circle business is simply sloppy and encourages the woman to anticipate rather than follow.

Having said that, it's a quick way of getting everyone dancing together from their very first lesson. The surprise comes in Viktor's dancing, cos he has made the semi-circles a positive style bonus. It's because of this that I often think of him as the leading archetype of British Ceroc (even without the publicity machine that used his image so much).

If I could do semi-circles as nicely as Viktor I'd probably do them a lot more. A number of ceroccers have great semi-circles - including Scott of Edinburgh; and I think even Franck is faithful to them a lot of the time

Personally they're not for me (even if Viktor's teaching). But I find some woman often tend to 'lead' the semicircles so I go along with it sometimes for a quiet life

[xSalsa_Angelx]

My partner always starts with the semi circle, and I am forever always telling him not to start off with the semi circle as it looks like a beginner move, I don't think its really that necessary.

but try telling him what to do he thinks he's always right, lol

[Gadget]

I remember the first time I went to Ceroc; one couple stood out as 'better' than the rest. Thinking back on it, it was their entrance onto the dance floor that made that impression - a simple left to right lady-spin, but the lead began off the floor.

I think that the semi-circle start is usefull only when your partner litteraly 'walks' onto the floor without paying any attention to the music, then faces you expectantly.
If they are already stepping to the beat or moving with the music, then the lead onto the floor smooths into the first move of the dance.

{I'm sure that there has been discussion about this...here - third post down}

The only other time I use semi-circle leads are small ones with both hands when 'bouncing'.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Gadget
The only other time I use semi-circle leads are small ones with both hands when 'bouncing'.

Didn't see what you meant at first (I think you mean a horizontal 'bounce' between you and your partner?). But on an unrelated note, which comes first, semi-circles or the 'bouncing'? (ie beginners who 'jog' in and out with bouncy knees). I suspect the semi-circles encourage the habit

Now if Blues dancing were de rigeur . . .

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Chris
Didn't see what you meant at first (I think you mean a horizontal 'bounce' between you and your partner?).

Yup: more a spiral lead than a semi-circle.

But on an unrelated note, which comes first, semi-circles or the 'bouncing'? (ie beginners who 'jog' in and out with bouncy knees). I suspect the semi-circles encourage the habit

It's not just beginners. And I suspect that it has nothing to do with the semi-circles, but the dancer trying to keep time with the music.

Another thing; when actually doing the 'semi-circle' - when do you step back?
* Semi-circle, and, (push)step back
* Semi-circle, and(push-begin step back), foot touches back
* Semi-circle, (push) step back
* Semi (push-begin step back) circle, foot touches back

("Push" being a gentle lead away)
Always confuses me when I think about it. {but I'm easily confused }

[Graham]

I really should read the question properly! I said I did it with beginners, but I was thinking about during the class. I never do it in freestyle, even with beginners. I think Chris is right about it being a convenient way of getting people started in synch before they've learned proper lead/follow technique.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gadget
Another thing; when actually doing the 'semi-circle' - when do you step back?
* Semi-circle, and, (push)step back
* Semi-circle, and(push-begin step back), foot touches back
* Semi-circle, (push) step back
* Semi (push-begin step back) circle, foot touches back

This question is basically how far in advance of the dance does your lead have to be: theoretically it should depend on who you're dancing with and how much "notice" they like.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Graham
I never do it in freestyle, even with beginners.

Nor do I.

Originally posted by Gadget
but the lead began off the floor.

This is always a good plan, IMHO, especially with beginners. It also gives you the opportunity to know where they're at by the time you start dancing.

So by the time I get the new beginner to the space on the floor, I know whether I can just start dancing, or whether they need a little teach on the very basics of connection.

I don't like them to start with a feeling confusion or failure - which could happen if they fail to follow either a semi-circle or a compression-based lead into a rock step back as Steve described.

I danced with a lady last night who felt like a complete beginner, but had apparently been going irregularly to Ceroc for two years, apparently to me without picking up anything about connection and resistance It took about two minutes to sort it out... at least for then - I expect she'll need to revisit it - but the transformation was astonishing.

I think persisting with semicircles just perpetuates this sort of confusion.

Chris

[Chris]

I think whether you use the semi-circles may also be about what style you want to achieve. Apart from the optional 'look' of the semi-circles, there's the question of how you like to communicate with that partner.

Aussies and Kiwis, it has seemed to me, use far more set signals -formal indications that require set responses. The semi-circle is like a set signal for any step back (not that the Kiwis use that one though).

My own preference has been to adapt many of these moves so that the set signal is made a natural, less obvious, part of the dance - eg taking the girl's hand in such a way as to achieve a desired hand hold rather than making a specific signal as is often taught. I think the follower has enough to do without remembering a secret language.

[DavidB]

The semi-circle has a very good reason for existing - to get leaders to start to lead before the movement, and to get the followers to move after the lead has started. This is especially useful for beginners, particularly when starting a dance.

It is such a simple and effective way of introducing this idea that most dancers (and possibly most teachers) don't realise this. And if it was only beginners who did it, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

However it has developed a life of its own. I can guarantee in every Modern Jive (not just Ceroc) class I do, virtually every lady will take my stationary hand and crank it round in ever increasing circles. I doubt any Ceroc teacher can actually teach a move without starting with the phrase "semi-circle with the hand and step back". Many people can't dance freestyle without doing a semicircle at every opportunity. I've heard talk of copyright issues (which I believe is a joke?), of discussions on how the direction of the semicircle is important for certain moves, and even on how it is the one thing that sets Modern Jive apart form other dance styles.

But if you think about it - what connection has the semicircle got to do with stepping back? When men do the semicircle, they also increase the pressure on the lady's hand. That increase in pressure is the lead - not the semicircle. Gadget mentioned a spiral lead - that describes it perfectly.

If you know when to start leading a move, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do the semicircle. Like anything else in dancing - if you don't have to do it, then the only reason for doing it is because it looks or feels good. This is down to individual preference.

These are my preferences:
- Hand movements in Salsa look good because they are a natural extension of the rhythm in your body. The only two men I know who can put this same rhythm into Jive are Viktor and Dale. On everyone else it just looks like a forced semicircle with the hand.

- Does it feel good? After 6 dances at a Ceroc night last Saturday I had to strap up my left wrist. After 2 hours of dancing I could only lead moves with my right hand.


So I would like an option for "I'm a man, I never have and never will do a semi-circle with my hand"

David

[Tazmanian Devil]

Sorry have not voted on this thread as you have not put anything for us women that do the mens moves!!
I am a women that does the mens part and never has done or will do a semi circle to start a dance. Although in saying that I think that in lessons I think it's a good idea to start wit a semi circle to step back as it makes it a bit easier for the beginners

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Chris
[
My own preference has been to adapt many of these moves so that the set signal is made a natural, less obvious, part of the dance - eg taking the girl's hand in such a way as to achieve a desired hand hold rather than making a specific signal as is often taught. I think the follower has enough to do without remembering a secret language. [/b]

The semi circle is a useful tool and has always been taught with enthusiasm at Guilford over the last 10yrs which I believe where John L comes from.

Some of the worse dances I see is where you have 'advanced male dancers trying to dance with women who obviously can't follow their lead, probably because the men are 'doing there own thing'

I would probably subconsciously start with semi circle if I don't know the person but if I knew them I doubt if I would.

[Chris]

Originally posted by stewart38
Some of the worse dances I see is where you have 'advanced male dancers trying to dance with women who obviously can't follow their lead, probably because the men are 'doing there own thing'

I would probably subconsciously start with semi circle if I don't know the person but if I knew them I doubt if I would.

Which is why I said "so I go along with it sometimes for a quiet life"

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Sorry have not voted on this thread as you have not put anything for us women that do the mens moves!!
I am a women that does the mens part and never has done or will do a semi circle to start a dance. Although in saying that I think that in lessons I think it's a good idea to start wit a semi circle to step back as it makes it a bit easier for the beginners

Taz the first post in thread says it's aimed at men and ladies who can dance the man's part. I would have typed this but it would have made the lines a bit long