To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension

It sure does that

Chris

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It sure does that

Chris

I shall amend my original post to include taxi dancers -

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[eastmanjohn]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

I shall amend my original post to include taxi dancers -

The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.

But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?

Precisely John. Unfortunately at most ceroc venues a fatuous 'semi-cicle' precedes the start of any set of moves - beginner or intermediate. Not explained, or taught properly by teacher or taxi dancer. I'm sure things are quite different at LeRoc


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[Gordon J Pownall]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Precisely John. Unfortunately at most ceroc venues a fatuous 'semi-cicle' precedes the start of any set of moves - beginner or intermediate. Not explained, or taught properly by teacher or taxi dancer. I'm sure things are quite different at LeRoc

Errm.......well yes actually some Ceroc teachers may not fully teach / explain the dynamics of the semi circle etc however, for beginners, the semi circle is a signal (and nothing more), that the dance / move is about to start.

I agree however that lead and follow beyond the minimal basics, is not covered in Ceroc Teacher training (unless little EmC can update us, as I did my training when the dead sea was only sick).

As The Oracle said somewhere, Ceroc / MJ is taught back to front. We teach moves to dance and then later on in workshops etc we actually teach people how to dance. Totally opposite to ballroom and other genres where you are taught how to dance / lead / follow and then taught the actual move to dance to.

The likes of myself, Adam Nathanson, Peter Phillips, David B and a few others of the 'older school' do make the distinction between what a semi circle is for and howyou actually lead the lady to step back / step in etc. using tension.

Beginners workshops are where i tend to spend more time addressing lead and follow and actually putting the semi circle issue to rights but it still remains (for beginners / newbies etc) an easy and important way of getting used to the start of moves in classes, as long as it is offset with the backup of clearer instruction in lead and follow.....

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

... The purpose of the 'semi circle' is to introduce tension between leader and follower - a point not commonly known by most ceroc teachers or taxi dancers so therefore not explained or taught properly - hence the confusion.

Interesting ... What's your background, The Pilgrim? How come you know about things that 'most' Ceroc teachers and taxi's don't?
Rachel

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall

Errm.......well yes actually some Ceroc teachers may not fully teach / explain the dynamics of the semi circle etc however, for beginners, the semi circle is a signal (and nothing more), that the dance / move is about to start.

I agree however that lead and follow beyond the minimal basics, is not covered in Ceroc Teacher training

Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject.

I agree with Gordon, there are notable exceptions on the ceroc circuit - Adam N, Rob May, Mick Wenger, and Gordon himself of course immediately come to mind.


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[under par]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject.

I agree with Gordon, there are notable exceptions on the ceroc circuit - Adam N, Rob May, Mick Wenger, and Gordon himself of course immediately come to mind.


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

What is the truth about the stranger who courts so much controversy.??

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Hi Rachel, I refer you to Gordon's post above. Hardly surprising I think you'd agree that most ceroc teachers have little grasp of the subject. ...

Why are you referring me to Gordon's post? He's not answering the questions I asked you: 'what's your background and how come you know things that most Ceroc teachers and taxis don't?'

Just curious, that's all ... Do you teach? Taxi? Do you know of teacher training courses where the importance/significance of the semi-circle is well explained? Do you consider the semi-circle necessary? If so, how would you teach it?

Basically, can you expand a little more on what you said? Given that you talk about 'most' Ceroc teachers and taxis, which venues have you been to? (Though, obviously, I'm not asking you to name those who you consider bad teachers on a public forum.)

Of course, you don't have to answer any of this, if you don't want. It would just be interesting to hear.
Rachel

[Gordon J Pownall]

Originally Posted by Rachel

Of course, you don't have to answer any of this, if you don't want. It would just be interesting to hear.
Rachel

Avoidance tactics on other threads as well - have a look here.....

[The Pilgrim]

Thank you for enquiring.

I am a simple appreciator of beauty and the experience of dance.

The fatuous semi circle which precedes the learning of a set of moves is one of ceroc/MJ’s great lost opportunities.

If the connection between leader and follower was taught properly in the first instance - jerking, yanking – the cause of so many uncomfortable dances, and for some less fortunate – injuries, would be a phenomenon of the past.


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

If the connection between leader and follower was taught properly in the first instance - jerking, yanking – the cause of so many uncomfortable dances, and for some less fortunate – injuries, would be a phenomenon of the past.

If it was taught properly in the first instance, do you think many people would stay with MJ for long enough to learn it?

I think you might possibly mean "If the connection between leader and follower was learned properly in the first instance".

Chris

[The Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

If it was taught properly in the first instance, do you think many people would stay with MJ for long enough to learn it?

Chris

Ironically, yes, I believe they would. Salsa, for example, is a more difficult genre to learn (footwork etc) yet is considerably more popular (worldwide).


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"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

Thank you for enquiring.

I am a simple appreciator of beauty and the experience of dance.

I don't think that the people who want to know who The Pilgrim is will be satisfied with this answer.

However, I think he/she is an asset to the debate and is even introducing new arguements and words never previously used to deride the semi-circle - fatuous!

And, in this case, if find myself agreeing with him. It might be easier to learn MJ if it's taught simply in the first instance - but I think this simplicity shouldn't extend to teaching something which needs to be unlearnt later because it is bad for your dancing.

Maybe The Pilgrim is a Smurf but doesn't want the other Smurfs on the Forum to know

[Jive Brummie]

Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, so apologise if this is repetition...

The reason for the semi circle is,

despite some people thinking that it is there purely for decoration...it is not. It's intended to be an aid for beginner males and females. Not only does it help let your partner know when to start dancing, i.e. 'the step back' but it's also there to indicate a specific beat. For example, if you're dancing to a faster track, you wouldn't really draw a huge, slow semi circle. It would be smaller and quicker.....

Hope this adds light to the debate.

James x x

[Mary]

I'm just coming into this thread late and have only read this last page, and with great interest.

My understanding of the Ceroc semi-circle is the same JB's - it's a useful tool for beginners. But is it necessary? My first lessons in MJ were before I had heard of Ceroc. The couple teaching always began with the simple tension excercise before progressing to the simple beginner moves. And, although no footwork is particularly involved, every aspect of each move was clearly illustrated and demonstrated so I was taught from the word go which foot to have my weight on which facilitated easier following. And I think the same went for the guys so, without realising it, they were always able to lead with the lady on the correct foot. I don't remember having a problem with picking up the beat or knowing when the moves were starting.

Very interested in The Pilgrim's contribution, even if it comes across as being slightly arrogant. Like Rachel, I am curious to know the background of the contributors authority. Sorry, I think I have expressed that a bit awkardly, but I guess what I am saying is that, although I am inclined to agree, I was a bit taken aback by the way The Pilgrim expresses him/herself and I am nosey!!!

M

[TheTramp]

Personally, I don't see the point of the semi-circle. It is designed as an aid for beginners, but it would be just as easy to teach them a little compression to start their dancing, rather than relying on a "visible" signal which is what the semi-circle usually is, and would possibly be a bit more useful in the long term. I don't see that putting many people off to be honest.

Having said that, I also don't really see it as a big deal either way...

Trampy

[Jive Brummie]

It's my opinion that the semi-circle thing is being blown out of all proportion a wee bit.... It is an aid to beginners and it does have a purpose.....for beginners, as outlined by the reasons I've written above.

I agree....to a certain extent that it is sometimes more visually appealing if it's dropped in favour of a slight push with the fingers of leader to the palm of the follower, but again, may I refer you to the fact that it's a beginners aid. Try teaching somebody who has never danced before...ever, about 'tension and compression' and stand back to admire the many blank looks you'll recieve.....through no fault of the beginner, but purely for the fact they have absolutely no idea what the hell you're on about.

The Pilgrim....I am open to suggestions.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Personally, I don't see the point of the semi-circle. It is designed as an aid for beginners, but it would be just as easy to teach them a little compression to start their dancing, rather than relying on a "visible" signal which is what the semi-circle usually is, and would possibly be a bit more useful in the long term. I don't see that putting many people off to be honest.

Dunno ... you try teaching compression and 'lead and follow' to intermediates and see how far you get

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gus

Dunno ... you try teaching compression and 'lead and follow' to intermediates and see how far you get

This sounds like the voice of experience: how far did you get Gus?