To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

[jockey]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Ah. But maybe, if they got taught it right at the beginning, then it'd be easier for them to pick up?? It's a lot easier to pick something up at the beginning, rather than learn one way, then try to unlearn to learn another way. Not that there's anything wrong for most people the way that they do it of course....

Just a thought

Trampy

Aand a good one..after all you are often meeting that person for the first time and if she (I'm assumed to be the leader) is to feel comfortable in starting the dance you should do what she is used to, namely, a small semicircle TTLeft (the 'When In Rome' lead).However, if you've got a worldbeater on your hands that's different.
But what about the other 'ceroc' thing - the way the follower circles the lead like the White Whale attempting to sink him in the everincreasing whirlpool (the Whirlpool Scenario) - you try a basic seducer and she's already past you and on to the next circuit...

[jockey]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

But the semi-circle itself doesn't create tension. I can do the semi circle with a very floppy arm and no tension/connection with my partner.

The tension can be generated without the semi circle and just a push with the back of the fingers in the palm of the lady's hand, so long as the partners balance with a slight tensing of the muscles in the arm.

The semi circle fills in time before the tension is required and changes the aesthetics of the dance. What happens between moves when you dance a sequence? Where is the semi circle then?

Talking about 'the semi-circle' is missing the point: its semi-circle AND STEP BACK. And it only works because we are all used to it (the When in Rome Lead), viz., semicircle means step back AWAY from each other, THUS setting up the tension. We all know do it without thinking and therefore it does a job. But a better job of setting up tension is actually done by the pushaway you get in Lindy (say Andy and Rena and Nigel and Nina) as the person I'm quoting suggests but only better in practice if we were all taught it in the beginning (see Trampy elsewhere in this thread).

Trying to change after 5 years muscle memory under the bridge (how's that for a mixed metaphor..) is a pointless waste of time.

There's a good bit on this thread where it says you can start the dance as you are walking on with a bit of a latin-style walk or something a bit daft - but, heh! that's 5 years of muscle memory under the bridge gone down the plughole...

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by jockey

Talking about 'the semi-circle' is missing the point

Yes

its (sic) semi-circle

No

STEP BACK.

Yes

[Andy McGregor]

It isn't even a semi-circle. From what I've observed it's a full circle ...

[MartinHarper]

I'm increasingly starting dances by leading a return. It seems to work more consistently to set up the initial tension than either a semi-circle, or a simple push. As a fringe benefit, I get a basic idea on the level of following ability I'm working with.

[tsh]

I learnt fairly quickly to start dancing in freestyle with an arm-jive, the semi-circle just didn't work for me outside of a class. I'm starting to experiment with other ways of initiating some tension (usually facilitated by an experienced follower providing a good starting point).

I don't think the semi-circle has ever been of much use to me, and I do sometimes use a push-back in a class when my partner forgets to step back.

The problem with the semi-circle is that it does not indicate if it's supposed to be a step in or a step back, and it merges into the general hand waving which is also being encouraged. Fewer signals, more emphasis leading would be my preference...

Sean

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Having made a great effort to learn to lead 'light', if my partner is determined to go her own way- she does, just without me.

Having thought about it i wish to re-state my case in case I offended anybody by accident. If I'm just digging myself a bigger hole feel free to ignore this.

Leading light is great until I dance with someone who requires a little more tension to remain in contact with. I enjoy these dances, but sometimes am forgetful and loose contact. Leads to an 'Eek where'd she go' panic.

Sometimes I feel that too much is being expected of my puny frame. My lead then becomes progresively lighter, until my partner can no-longer dance on auto pilot and has to concentrate on what I'm doing in order to continue following. Its my coping tactic, now given firmly away, it protects me and my body without (hopefuly) giving insult or offence.

Anybody I offended by accident, sorry. If I'm going to do that it should be deliberate.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Having thought about it i wish to re-state my case in case I offended anybody by accident. If I'm just digging myself a bigger hole feel free to ignore this.

Leading light is great until I dance with someone who requires a little more tension to remain in contact with. I enjoy these dances, but sometimes am forgetful and loose contact. Leads to an 'Eek where'd she go' panic.

Sometimes I feel that too much is being expected of my puny frame. My lead then becomes progresively lighter, until my partner can no-longer dance on auto pilot and has to concentrate on what I'm doing in order to continue following. Its my coping tactic, now given firmly away, it protects me and my body without (hopefuly) giving insult or offence.

Anybody I offended by accident, sorry. If I'm going to do that it should be deliberate.

I can't see how anyone could be offended by this. It sounds absolutely right to me. Keep on with the light leading, please!

I have a similar defence when I feel men are holding on too tight - I deliberately and constantly try and lose contact throughout the dance. Or make contact with only their arm or wrist, rather than holding onto their hand.
Rachel

[BeeBee]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Having made a great effort to learn to lead 'light', if my partner is determined to go her own way- she does, just without me.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight (penny dropping)

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by BeeBee

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight (penny dropping)

Now read the re-post and forgive me

[BeeBee]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Now read the re-post and forgive me

Nothing to forgive Balders! Hope you had a good birthday weekend, see you tomorrow for a jig round the floor . . .

Beebs

[Commis Chef]

Originally Posted by DavidB

His argument was that over the course of an evening, a lady might have anything up to 30 dances, and it could get boring to start every one with this Starter Step.


David

As a lady, I find I grit my teeth when I am started off with a circle especially when it is over exaggerated. When it is combined with a wide swinging action to the introduction music I want to run off the floor.
When I hold a man's hand ready to dance I prefer to feel a gentle push into my hand to which I can give reciprocal resistance. It gets the feeling of connection ready for the next move. I recognise what I consider a good dancer by the feel of this connection which you do not gain from the circle action.

[eastmanjohn]

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

. When it is combined with a wide swinging action to the introduction music I want to run off the floor.

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

It was a bit like a 4 year old boy doing the longest run up possible before kicking a football, only to realise once he actually got to the ball that he had overestimated the distance, stopped and then completely mis-kicked it anyway!! Am I alone in this feeling? Is it meant to help the lead into the step back somehow?

Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?

[tsh]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?

It's random. This gets especially iritating when your partner starts watching the rest of the line to try and get the sway in phase with them.

I think I heard the teacher encourage wild side to side stepping as well recently, but I wasn't sure. This is slowly starting to get quite irritating, to the point when I am starting to actively disrupt the sway. Must see if there are any non ceroc venues local, and see if they're any better!

Sean

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

This, bizzarely, is one of the things I like. Because I have to sync the side-to-side movement into the first move of the routine, it gives me practice at leading the girl's weight to the right place at the right time in order to do the move I want to do. That's a valuable skill. Because I've not got it yet, I mess up often.

----

One slightly weird thought. Suppose my partner and I have our handhold high (shoulder height?) with elbows by our sides. Now, suppose I move the handhold down to waist level, while keeping my elbow in the same place. By virtue of the length of my forearm, that act is going to automatically generate a backwards push on my partner's hand, leading her to step back. This makes me wonder if the semi-circle is truly as disconnected from "proper" lead/follow as I previously thought.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. ...Am I alone in this feeling? Is it meant to help the lead into the step back somehow?

It's designed to help beginners actually move and instill some sense of rhythm. It also has the added advantage that everyone is counted in at the right time. The 'step back' os a completley seperate lead - it should be "five.." (hand to one side) "and" (hand in middle) "...six..." (hand to other side) "and" (hand in middle) "...seven..." (hand to first side) "and" (hand in middle) "...eight..." (hand to other side again) "and" (hand to middle) "back" (step back led)
These side to side movements should be done with a tilting of the hand and transfer of weight rather than a huge step and lead.

I think that it helps get movement started, allows you to listen to tracks and where/how the teacher counts you in. It's thumbs up from me on this one.

Also, is the initial sway on the count of 5 to the left or the right, or is it as random as it appeared on the night?

Yup; fairly random - I try to match the direction the teacher is going on stage - otherwise the beginner ladies get confused.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

This weird side-to-side movement seems to be the coundown to starting the routine being taught. IMHO the countdown to the start of the routine is to show the students the teacher's timing. But I've been to many Ceroc classes where this side-to-side movement is exaggerated and meaningless. And, if you're not in the right place it means you start the routine 2 beats away from the teacher - or, even worse, one beat away from the teacher's timing.

Let's not tell Ceroc how silly this side-to-side, five AND six AND seven AND eight is - us independent organisers need some advantage

[CJ]

Originally Posted by baldrick

of my puny frame.

just noticed this: who is he kidding?!?!?!!?!!?!?

[tsh]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

This, bizzarely, is one of the things I like. Because I have to sync the side-to-side movement into the first move of the routine, it gives me practice at leading the girl's weight to the right place at the right time in order to do the move I want to do. That's a valuable skill. Because I've not got it yet, I mess up often.

If your partner knows what to do, you're not leading. That is one of the reasons I find the over-exageration of an initial 'finding the beat' annoying.
The lindy classes I've started doing are explicitly teaching moves with variations (e.g. clockwise or ccw turn) so it's impossible for the follower to move without being lead. If we're not made to lead, we can't learn how to lead clearly.

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's designed to help beginners actually move and instill some sense of rhythm. It also has the added advantage that everyone is counted in at the right time.
...
I think that it helps get movement started, allows you to listen to tracks and where/how the teacher counts you in. It's thumbs up from me on this one.

Yes, some movement is good, but it doesn't have to be a 2ft step to each side with a big arcing had jesture EVERY time. I only lead this type of motion with a small number of beginners and certain music. It still happens most of the time. Who's leading???

Sean

[Lou]

Originally Posted by eastmanjohn

At a recent ceroc class (I hadn't been to a ceroc venue for years) I found the side to side movement on the count 5,6,7,8 very distracting. Sometimes the movement had to be abruptly stopped as it obviously took you into the move in the wrong direction.

John, just out of idle curiousity, you understand, but which venue did you go to? I found it very noticeable at Swindon. Just wondering if it was the same place....?

I thought it was absolutely horrible because it felt so ungainly, and I remember being so puzzled by it I posted about it at the time.