To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

**DavidB** · 17th-May-2002, 01:03 PM

I can't understand why every teacher starts a move with the phrase "semicircle with your hand, and step back". Is it just styling, or a teaching technique, or am I missing something a bit more fundamental.

I learnt most of my Modern Jive in the '80s from Janie Cronin, and can't remember her teaching this. To get the lady to step back, you just led her back by gently pushing her away.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Or just plain old.

David

Jayne · 17th-May-2002, 01:44 PM

Hi David,

Franck will probably have a better answer than me but....

I thought the semi-circle bit told your partner that you'd found a beat (not necessarily the right one!

) and that you were about to start dancing. This is then followed by a slight "push" against your partner to get her to step back, as you said.

Does this help??

Jayne

**Franck** · 17th-May-2002, 01:52 PM

The semi-circle started in the late 80's, as a means to get Beginners off to a good start.
You are right, the semi-circle is not absolutely necessary, but if I remember my early training days, (James Cronin was doing the training, and then Janie) it was found that the pushing your partner back could easily be mis-understood, resulting in ackward (if not painful) starts.

The semi-circle also helps (in theory) in taking a reasonably small step back, and not pushing your partner miles away.
It looks (arguably) more stylish when you start (better than most alternative) and focuses the mind of Beginners.

Typically, though after a while, most dancers will reduce the size of the semi-circle and eventually do without altogether.
One of the things I teach at Style workshops is a variety of starting alternatives, to suit your mood / partner and of course the music.

Franck.

Jayne · 17th-May-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jayne
Hi David,

Franck will probably have a better answer than me but....

I was right...

Jayne

**DavidB** · 17th-May-2002, 02:02 PM

Thanks. It makes a lot more sense now.

David

**Dreadful Scathe** · 24th-June-2002, 09:54 PM

Is this true ? I was lead to believe that the 'small semi circle to the left' was the 'C' of Ceroc and differentiatied between the franchise of Ceroc and the other variations of jive such as Leroc. The purpose being that Ceroc is trying to protect its franchise with at least some form of noticeable difference.

**Franck** · 25th-June-2002, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Is this true ? I was lead to believe that the 'small semi circle to the left' was the 'C' of Ceroc and differentiatied between the franchise of Ceroc and the other variations of jive such as Leroc. The purpose being that Ceroc is trying to protect its franchise with at least some form of noticeable difference.

What a funny idea...

I wonder if Leroc et al do an 'L' shape to start the dance then! I am getting visions of YMCA dance styles appearing all over the place...

The semi-circle was created as a different way to start the dance, but not different from other jives, mostly different from the formality of a Ballroom hold.

The main difference between Ceroc and other forms of Jive is not found in semi-circles or other small technical details, but in the method of teaching, the length and quality of training for Ceroc teachers and the standards maintained across the UK which more or les guarantee that wherever you are in the UK, a Ceroc night will be of the same high standards.
The name is registered to protect the goodwill Ceroc have accumulated over the last 20 + years, across the country, in providing the best possible experience to all dancers.

Franck.

**Lou** · 25th-June-2002, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franck
What a funny idea... I wonder if Leroc et al do an 'L' shape to start the dance then! I am getting visions of YMCA dance styles appearing all over the place...

*lol*

Pardon me for sneaking in from the ...errrmmm.... "other lot"!

We do the semi-circle thing... but we call it the "C Motion".

I'll sneak back out now.... sorry Franck.....

**Franck** · 26th-June-2002, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lou
Pardon me for sneaking in from the ...errrmmm.... "other lot"!

We do the semi-circle thing... but we call it the "C Motion".

Hi Lou and welcome to the forum. No need to be shy, your input is just what we need.

So, it seems the circle thing is quite common after all but I am left wondering if during the classes anyone is feeling 'C' sick from all this 'C' motion !!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Lou
I'll sneak back out now.... sorry Franck.....

Please don't... Stick around, I am sure you'll fit right in.
This forum is for anyone interested in discussing dance / music etc... as well as talking about any stuff and nonsense with like-minded people; so grab a coffee and jump in the many threads available.

Cheers,

Franck.

**Lou** · 26th-June-2002, 02:05 PM

nice coffee! Thanks.

The other useful part of the semi-circle manoeuvre is that it indicates to we ladies which foot to step back on. By doing it, it slightly opens out the position between both dancers (assuming you're keeping some tension, that is!).

Try doing it in the conventional direction (anti-clockwise for you chaps) whilst the lady steps back on her right foot (say she was going into a return, for example), and see how awkward it feels for her. (Of course, this only applies to a class environment!)

In free dance I'd expect to start back on my left by default, anyway.

*eastmanjohn* · 20th-August-2002, 10:43 AM

I think the whole C motion thing is just a teaching aid. It helps people at the back of the room see when you are starting some motion.

It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vita pint in the dance.

Sorry this is a reply to quite an old thread, but I'm new here!!

Cheers

John

**Franck** · 3rd-September-2002, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vita pint in the dance.

Not vital, but I am sure you have noticed how difficult it is for Beginners to actually get started... They have to find the beat, make sure they know which move they want to do and lead their (possibly un-familiar) partner into the dance!
So starting up is quite a challenge, and having something simple (like the semi-circle) makes a big difference!

Quote:

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
Sorry this is a reply to quite an old thread, but I'm new here!!

No problem, I love re-surrecting old threads.

Franck.

**DavidB** · 3rd-September-2002, 09:59 AM

I'd forgotten all about this thread...

Quote:

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vital point in the dance.

Does it only happen once? Quite a lot of people do it all the time, between every move. Part of this is natural - coming out of a return your hand tends to do a curve anyway. But in Jive the motion of the hand is very exaggerated (up and down, semi circles, moving the hand in a different direction to the body etc), and it seems that this is a conscious effort on the part of the teachers.

Another little observation about starting to dance. Most teachers and demonstrators now seem to do a twist step as they count the music in. (I think this is a good idea, as it gets everyone used to the timing.) But is there a competition to see who can do the biggest step in this twist? I saw a couple on Saturday who were close to falling off the stage. Maybe we should get Jonathan Edwards and Aisha Hansen to teach...

David

*eastmanjohn* · 3rd-September-2002, 10:19 AM

In Viktor and lydia's workshop they show big reversed multiple circles as a variation when stepping back. Looks great but difficult to repeat when linking moves. How does this fit into the semi circle idea?

I have incorporated a lot of V&L material into my dancing, especially the twists out of a return, but it really does require a different feel fromthe woman to make it work. It doesn't happen naturally for most dancers.

Any comments?

By the way, I agree that there is a feeling of the semi circle when linking moves, but it is worth considering the direction of this natural movement as you come out of a normal turn or a return. They happen in different directions. This will link into another thread if I'm not careful, as it also has a lot to do with how moves link. When we use returns .etc etc.

horsey_dude · 20th-November-2002, 10:56 AM

Beginners usually move too fast.... I think the semi circle is less pronounced as you get better (for me i lower my hand as I go out and raise it as I come in).

Guys! Try goining though the motions of starting a first move (or something similar) and try pushing you hand straight out. It seems to turn it into a violent shove....

Once you are actually dancing it dosn't seem to come into play so much because you are already moving.

horsey_dude · 20th-November-2002, 10:57 AM

I trying to respond to another thread and got it wrong.....

**Dreadful Scathe** · 20th-November-2002, 11:28 AM

Im confused too.

Constantly.

Especially when dancing.

Ronde! · 3rd-January-2003, 10:28 PM

We do the semicircle motion here, too; and it's even "officially" called "The C for Ceroc" by many teachers.

I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation.

However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.

**DavidB** · 4th-January-2003, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronde!
I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation.

For a slightly alternative viewpoint...
I've been to a workshop with one of the top West Coast Swing teachers in the US (Mark Scheuffele), and he suggested always starting the dance differently - as a courtesy to the ladies. (In WCS the 'standard' start is a step called the Starter Step)

His argument was that over the course of an evening, a lady might have anything up to 30 dances, and it could get boring to start every one with this Starter Step.

Personally I think both arguments have their merits. I only do the semicircle if I'm in a beginners class, or the lady does it for me. In Freestyle, the first time I dance with someone I start simply (usually both hands) to avoid any confusion. A second dance and I might be more inventive.

Quote:

However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.

Glad to hear it. I keep wondering where this distinctive style came from in the first place

David

**Emma** · 4th-January-2003, 10:37 AM

Good grief David, posting at 3.43 am is surely beyond the call of duty!

View Poll Results: Do you still draw the semi circle when you dance in freestyle?
I am a man and I always draw the semi circle when I start dancing	8	9.30%
I am a man and I usually draw the semi circle when I start dancing	4	4.65%
I am a man and I only draw the semi circle when dancing with beginners	16	18.60%
I am a man and I no longer draw the semi circle when I start dancing	44	51.16%
I am a woman (and I don't dance the man's part) so this is Not Applicable.	14	16.28%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll \| Withdraw Vote

17th-May-2002, 01:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,130 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	Why do the semi-circle with your hand? I can't understand why every teacher starts a move with the phrase "semicircle with your hand, and step back". Is it just styling, or a teaching technique, or am I missing something a bit more fundamental. I learnt most of my Modern Jive in the '80s from Janie Cronin, and can't remember her teaching this. To get the lady to step back, you just led her back by gently pushing her away. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Or just plain old. David

20th-November-2002, 10:56 AM	#15 (permalink)
horsey_dude Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wellington Posts: 226 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 34	It helps with timing.... Beginners usually move too fast.... I think the semi circle is less pronounced as you get better (for me i lower my hand as I go out and raise it as I come in). Guys! Try goining though the motions of starting a first move (or something similar) and try pushing you hand straight out. It seems to turn it into a violent shove.... Once you are actually dancing it dosn't seem to come into play so much because you are already moving.

20th-November-2002, 10:57 AM	#16 (permalink)
horsey_dude Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wellington Posts: 226 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 34	Please Ignore this thread I trying to respond to another thread and got it wrong.....

20th-November-2002, 11:28 AM	#17 (permalink)
Dreadful Scathe Papa Smurf Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Planet Scathe Posts: 9,788 Rep Power: 7 Reputation Total: 2273	Im confused too. Constantly. Especially when dancing. __________________ "defiantly a pork soared" -fletch "This is a discussion forum, not some sort of hippy poetry-reading commune" - TAFKADJ

17th-May-2002, 01:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Jayne Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,000 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 59	Hi David, Franck will probably have a better answer than me but.... I thought the semi-circle bit told your partner that you'd found a beat (not necessarily the right one! ) and that you were about to start dancing. This is then followed by a slight "push" against your partner to get her to step back, as you said. Does this help?? Jayne

17th-May-2002, 01:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Franck Omnipresent Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,766 Rep Power: 10 Reputation Total: 1508	The semi-circle started in the late 80's, as a means to get Beginners off to a good start. You are right, the semi-circle is not absolutely necessary, but if I remember my early training days, (James Cronin was doing the training, and then Janie) it was found that the pushing your partner back could easily be mis-understood, resulting in ackward (if not painful) starts. The semi-circle also helps (in theory) in taking a reasonably small step back, and not pushing your partner miles away. It looks (arguably) more stylish when you start (better than most alternative) and focuses the mind of Beginners. Typically, though after a while, most dancers will reduce the size of the semi-circle and eventually do without altogether. One of the things I teach at Style workshops is a variety of starting alternatives, to suit your mood / partner and of course the music. Franck.

17th-May-2002, 02:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,130 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	Thanks. It makes a lot more sense now. David

24th-June-2002, 09:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
Dreadful Scathe Papa Smurf Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Planet Scathe Posts: 9,788 Rep Power: 7 Reputation Total: 2273	Is this true ? I was lead to believe that the 'small semi circle to the left' was the 'C' of Ceroc and differentiatied between the franchise of Ceroc and the other variations of jive such as Leroc. The purpose being that Ceroc is trying to protect its franchise with at least some form of noticeable difference.

26th-June-2002, 02:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
Lou Not a spoon! Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Holby Posts: 3,233 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1355	nice coffee! Thanks. The other useful part of the semi-circle manoeuvre is that it indicates to we ladies which foot to step back on. By doing it, it slightly opens out the position between both dancers (assuming you're keeping some tension, that is!). Try doing it in the conventional direction (anti-clockwise for you chaps) whilst the lady steps back on her right foot (say she was going into a return, for example), and see how awkward it feels for her. (Of course, this only applies to a class environment!) In free dance I'd expect to start back on my left by default, anyway.

20th-August-2002, 10:43 AM	#11 (permalink)
eastmanjohn Commercial Operator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bristol Posts: 75 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 28	I think the whole C motion thing is just a teaching aid. It helps people at the back of the room see when you are starting some motion. It only happens once in a freestyle dance anyway as after that all the moves are linked, so I don't think it is vita pint in the dance. Sorry this is a reply to quite an old thread, but I'm new here!! Cheers John

3rd-September-2002, 10:19 AM	#14 (permalink)
eastmanjohn Commercial Operator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bristol Posts: 75 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 28	In Viktor and lydia's workshop they show big reversed multiple circles as a variation when stepping back. Looks great but difficult to repeat when linking moves. How does this fit into the semi circle idea? I have incorporated a lot of V&L material into my dancing, especially the twists out of a return, but it really does require a different feel fromthe woman to make it work. It doesn't happen naturally for most dancers. Any comments? By the way, I agree that there is a feeling of the semi circle when linking moves, but it is worth considering the direction of this natural movement as you come out of a normal turn or a return. They happen in different directions. This will link into another thread if I'm not careful, as it also has a lot to do with how moves link. When we use returns .etc etc.

3rd-January-2003, 10:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
Ronde! Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 122 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 40	More fuel for the fire We do the semicircle motion here, too; and it's even "officially" called "The C for Ceroc" by many teachers. I always use it to start, even though I've been dancing a while now. The primary reason is courtesy, as most of the ladies here have learned to follow the C as their lead-off, and I love partnering beginners and making them feel good about their dancing! So one of the alternative starts would be inappropriate in this situation. However, all the teachers here discourage "bopping". Such behaviour includes: continually jiggling handholds in time to the beat (including repeatedly doing the "C"), constantly bobbing your head as you dance, marching with the feet instead of keeping them near the floor. These things make dancing a lot less stylish and reduce the clarity and quality of leads.

4th-January-2003, 10:37 AM	#20 (permalink)
Emma Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sarf East London Posts: 1,602 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 99	Good grief David, posting at 3.43 am is surely beyond the call of duty!

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