Moves v Style

[Gus]

The Viktor and Lydia thread started off a little debate which I thought was worth following up on.

There seemed to be two different camps for requirements from the advanced workshop. Those who wanted more moves and those who wanted style. It occured to me as to just how difficult it is to teach style ... especially within the confines of the standard ceroc lesson. If the teacher can get the dancers to stop bouncing up and down, step on the beat and not lunge backward and forward like quasimodo ... then thats doing pretty well.

Style will always be a personal thing, by its very nature, but I think its mostly learnt by seeing someone else do something you like and trying to copy it. Thats been the most important thing we got from the V&L workshops. The ladies especially were benefiting greatly from copying elements of Lydia's footwork.

My question really is, where did you get your style from and what could be done to better teach style OR are more moves the method by which you learn style?

[John S]

I could be wrong (it does happen) but I think most people's basic dance style is developed very early on, and doesn't usually alter - learning more moves certainly doesn't change it - the rough edges get knocked off and the moves become technically more proficient, but that's all.

Maybe there are a few basic styles that we fall into (obviously what follows are caricatures and we're all really mixtures, but usually one or other style seems to predominate):

These were once summarised for me by suggesting that men's styles were either that of Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly - ie probably "Smoothie" or "Powerhouse" in this list:

The Bouncer - energetic, vigorous up-and-down arm movements, prefers fast music

The Smoothie - graceful, sinuous arm movements, prefers medium/slow music

The Powerhouse - muscular, arms used for lifts and drops, prefers medium/fast music

The Sleaze/Tart - older than partner, arms used for close control, prefers slow music

The Athlete - slim/toned, can adapt arm-styles, no preference in music. (In fact, damn near perfect!)

AND OF COURSE, A CATEGORY FOR MYSELF:

The Wannabe Youngagain - best days long gone, arms occasionally in right place, can't hear music

[DavidB]

Good questions. An 'advanced' dancer is someone who is both good to look at, and good to watch, whoever they are dancing with. This is not easy, and takes the ability to:

- know exactly what he/she is doing
- know what his/her partner is doing
- understand how his/her dancing affects the partner
- understand and anticipate the music
- interpret the music individually
- interpret the music as a couple
- be aware of what everyone around is doing
- be a capable individual dancer
- be able to lead/follow (preferably both?) well
- know what looks good
- know and avoid what looks bad
- be flexible in case things go wrong
- and do all this naturally, without thinking, and smiling all the time!

This is by no means exclusive, and there are certainly other things that people can think of. But one that I wouldn't put on the list is 'knowing a lot of complicated moves'. An advanced dancer is capable of doing complicated moves, but it doesn't work the other way around.

I don't think there are any truly advanced Jive dancers yet. There are obviously people who are better than everyone else, and could be considered advanced compared to other Jive dancers. But I haven't seen anyone who can compare to the top dancers in other types of dancing.

You can adapt, improve or even completely change your style, but it is not easy.

The quickest way to make a big improvement is to watch a video of yourself. See what you really dislike about your dancing, and then change it. (Alternatively get someone to watch you, and see what they think. Don't pick a close friend!)

I would imagine that teaching style is very difficult - far harder than just teaching moves, and probably harder than teaching technique. And like any other form of teaching, what works for one student doesn't work for another. I find it difficult to copy other dancers - I can see what they are doing, but my body loses something in the translation!

Some of the things that helped me improve my style were:
- not letting style get in the way of basic dancing (by understanding what you can and cannot change)
- working on a style for one type of music at a time
- don't worry about being stylish in complicated moves.


Good luck in your workshop.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
There seemed to be two different camps for requirements from the advanced workshop. Those who wanted more moves and those who wanted style. It occured to me as to just how difficult it is to teach style ... especially within the confines of the standard ceroc lesson. If the teacher can get the dancers to stop bouncing up and down, step on the beat and not lunge backward and forward like quasimodo ... then thats doing pretty well.

Style will always be a personal thing, by its very nature, but I think its mostly learnt by seeing someone else do something you like and trying to copy it. Thats been the most important thing we got from the V&L workshops. The ladies especially were benefiting greatly from copying elements of Lydia's footwork.

My question really is, where did you get your style from and what could be done to better teach style OR are more moves the method by which you learn style?

I believe that Style can indeed be taught. The problem is that it takes a while to assimilate in your dancing.

While you can be taught a move in a few minutes, and within a few hours be able to dance it; with style you can learn new additions at a workshop or a class but it will probably take weeks or even months before you can integrate the Style point in your dancing. As a result, very few people make the effort to sustain the practice.

To answer John S, I believe it is possible to change your style (radically if needed), but as in the above paragraph, it takes time, effort and a lot of motivation.

I personally have had about 4 / 5 very different styles of dancing Ceroc over the last 10 years and everytime I changed it was in response to seeing someone else dancing differently and then taking a Style workshop with them or someone who could teach their particular technique.

Franck.

[Lindsay]

I agree that style can be 'taught', but possibly more through observation and trial & error, than through formal class teaching. I have found the range of styles displayed by top dancers inspiring, and believe it to be very individual. Different styles seem to reflect people's attitude, physique, and dancing history. I would hate to think that we all looked the same!

[Bill]

Hi - I'm back not that anyone will have noticed I've been away !!

Anyway......... the whole issue of style is fraught with difficulty as there are those dancers who can take on board aspects of dancing and incorporate them into their dancing and others who, for different reasons, won't or can't.

I know my style has changed over 5 years although I'm still struggling to 'find' my own style. Like Franck I've seen some great dancers and thought I wanted to dance like them e.g. I want to Blues like Nigel and jive like Viktor but while I can dream I know I'll never get anywhere near them

But.....at least watching them and going to their workshops gives me something to work on and ideas of how to improve. The only problem I find when trying anything new is that my dancing suffers for a while as I try and adapt to particular style points then I get frustrated and annoyed.

I suppose the point is that we can all learn by watching other dancers but as David says , unless you can get someone to watch you - or video yourself it is very difficult to work out what you look like and what can be improved upon. Be warned though........ seeing yourself on tape can be very worrying ! Just when you thought that you looked reasonably good......

Well that's me off again down south..... a quick tour round Manchester and Leeds so I'll miss the fab Gus doing hi sstuff in Aberdeen bad timing Gus or was this a deliberate ploy to avoid me in the class ????? I wa slooking forward to heckling from the back. Enjoy the class.

[Basil Brush]

I like to concentrate on my brush strokes and sweeping movements, making sure to laugh rather loudly at every opportunity.

Wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a----- a ------- a -------- a ----------- BOOM BOOM!

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
- or video yourself it is very difficult to work out what you look like and what can be improved upon. Be warned though........ seeing yourself on tape can be very worrying ! Just when you thought that you looked reasonably good......

Banish that thought right now, watching yourself on video is the most depressing thing anyone can do... We all have a mental image of what we look like, and generally, it is very removed from reality... This is not a bad thing, most people's perception of what we look like is nowhere near as critical as we would be, and (in theory), the only perception that matters is that of your partner, and she will have a different perspective; what you look like is a lot less important than what you feel like!

Videos are useful for anyone who wants to compete (when appearances are more important), to correct small idiosyncracies in your dancing, but as you said, not for the faint-hearted!

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
Banish that thought right now, watching yourself on video is the most depressing thing anyone can do...

I have to agree (sort of). Many moons ago I went to JiveSPree and paid my money for the vid ... it came an eagerly I thrust it into the vid player to enjoy the spectacle again. HOWEVER ... the first couple that were features after the first lesson included me. The HORROR ... instead of this gracefull, lithe, stylish dancer (as I knew me to be) ... instead there was this quasimodo-gorrilla who would not have looked out of place in Planet of the Apes (considering where my nickname comes from, possibly quite aposite). Sufficeth to say that I literally gace up Cero for 3 months.

Video feedback is an excellent way to progress BUT have a trained counseller at hand!

[Basil Brush]

As I am accustomed to life on the screen, viewing my dance style on video is not a problem....
I did see my self on a camcorder a few years ago, and by jove it was a shock! I had no idea I bounced so much, so have since toned this down somewhat. I found the experience helpful in the long term, once the initial shock died down.

Baz
x

[John S]

In 1999, having just been dancing a few months, I went to the UK Ceroc Championships and paid for the private video recording (no, not THAT kind of private video.) I actually thought I wasn't bad, given the lack of experience.

What is deeply worrying, though, is that I did the same thing in 2002, and found it hard to spot much improvement from the 1999 version.

[Franck]

Originally posted by John S
In 1999, having just been dancing a few months, I went to the UK Ceroc Championships and paid for the private video recording (no, not THAT kind of private video.) I actually thought I wasn't bad, given the lack of experience.

What is deeply worrying, though, is that I did the same thing in 2002, and found it hard to spot much improvement from the 1999 version.

Well obviously, if you liked your dancing in 1999, there were few reasons to change it!
It is also possible that all the improvements that took place in the last few years were not visible, but 'felt' by your partner: better lead, more moves, better musical interpretation, etc...

I reckon you should digitize those 2 videos and post them on the forum so we can give you our collective wisdom on them

Franck.

[Glider]

I reckon style is 50% attitude you put into your dancing and 50%the actual technique of the motion of the footwork. Attitude is something anyone can just act. I also think its easy to learn the technique side of style.

I've noticed that almost everybody, myself included, subconciously copies people that they've been watching. I don't think picking up style is about hard slog and videoing and coaching, just watching a style that you like is enough to pick most of it up. The curious thing is that people don't even realise what they've picked up most of the time.

Hows that for tough homework!!

I'm off to go sit on a couch and watch some videos now.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Glider
I've noticed that almost everybody, myself included, subconciously copies people that they've been watching. I don't think picking up style is about hard slog and videoing and coaching, just watching a style that you like is enough to pick most of it up.

If only it were that easy...
You do pick up style by watching, but watching is not enough. You need to be able to feel the way someone else is dancing (empathy), and try to replicate that feeling in your own dancing.
This will only get you so far though as your body will not be able to instinctively reproduce some of the subtleties you observed until you have practised a variety of techniques / footworks / movements... Once you have accumulated a dictionnary of potential moves, it becomes easier to emulate (or at least try semi-successfully) other dancers.

So don't just settle down in front of those videos just yet!

Franck.

[Jon]

Every now and then I notice my style changes and that I am dancing differently than before. I find the style changes are for the better as I become more confident I'm able to express myself more in the dance. It might be a different arm movement or a different type of walk or not looking at my partner when normally I would have. Little things really but it's the finishing touches that makes a move look good.

I get ideas from watching people, doing style workshops and watching videos but Frank is right it does take awhile before the style point becomes a natural part of your dancing.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
If only it were that easy...
You do pick up style by watching, but watching is not enough.
Franck.

There may be a few dancers who really can assimilate a move or sequence of moves - many more who perhaps think they can but I'm certainly not one of them.

I watched a video of Nigel and Nina and tried for a while to get a move right but it never felt quite right. They demonstrated the move at the weekend and when they walked through it I realised what I was doing 'wrong'. It was simply that my hand was at the woman's waist rather than on her back. Not much of a difference but enough to make the move flow much better.

And it's those little things that you can't always appreciate when you just see someone go through a move. I know it takes me a while to get some moves and the nuances are vitally
important.

And having found a tape of myself from nearly 4 years ago I can see how my style has changed...........alhtough the moves were very similar

But if you are going to use a video.......as others say here, be prepared for the worst. I taped myslef at the weekend and some of the moves I htought looked good looked anything but ..........althtough a couple I htought might look messy seemed OK.

But as we all keep saying...it is most of all about having fun

[Jon]

I don't think a video is any good for learning new moves, but you can definatly pick up style points from watching videos like the ceroc champs vid.

I still want to see what I look like on video. God thats a scary thought.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jon
I don't think a video is any good for learning new moves, but you can definatly pick up style points from watching videos like the ceroc champs vid.

I still want to see what I look like on video. God thats a scary thought.

Well it depends on the move I guess and whether the dancers demonstrate it clearly and from different angles. I've seen a couple of dance tapes where the instructors do cover the moves very well and at different angles and explain what's happening. Others just talk through the moves quickly and from one angle so more difficult to pick up.

Best of luck if you go ahead and video yourself Having seen thattape from over 3 years ago I can see I've improved - not difficult given the lumbering, wooden plank I was - but still so many aspects to improve. Enjoy the viewing if it happens