Why do women anticipate moves?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The bit that worries me most is, watching dancers at most classes, I'm the odd one out.

Which brings me to wonder, how do so many ladies learn to anticipate and even lead, so forcefully?

Last night at Twyford, a lady joined me in the class, about five minutes after the start. Despite having only watched from the side (maybe not even that), she seemed to think that she could lead it better than I could, and tried very hard (to do something other than the move being taught, naturally).

How do they get like this? Surely most of them don't like it - I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. Is it encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead? If so, how do they cope with the frustration? Why do they still enjoy partner dancing at all?

Chris

[LilyB]

Originally posted by ChrisA
. . . How do they get like this? Surely most of them don't like it - I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour. . .

Yes, it is.

Is it encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead?

Yes again.

If so, how do they cope with the frustration?

We get used to it.

Why do they still enjoy partner dancing at all?

Because we live in hope!

On a more serious note, I personally find that I am very often forced to anticipate moves and/or lead myself because my partner has failed to lead the move that he intended clearly enough, and his actual lead is either non-existent, or too weak, or equivocal (could be any one of a number of moves), or has come too late for me to follow properly/safely. This is a problem not confined to beginners only - it is equally apparent in some very experienced men. Fortunately, with the more experienced guys, it tends to be an occasional glitch rather than a continuous theme running throughout their dancing.

In the above situation, the only alternative for the lady (other than anticipating/leading ourselves) is to stop dancing altogether and stare at your partner, wondering what he wants us to do next. Surely that is not to be preferred. Remember, guys, most women do not have ESP and cannot read your minds (there are always exceptions ). If they appear to be anticipating or leading themselves, it could well be because, as ChrisA noted above, "it is encouraged by too much dancing with blokes that can't lead".

It is terribly frustrating, yes, but most of us girls realise that good leading skills (just like good following skills) have to be learnt, and nobody is perfect.

In spite of all the problems that are inherent in dancing - and bad leading/following is only one (or is that two?) of them - all of us do it because we enjoy it. Some of us see it as a challenge - to lead/follow your partner's every nuance, to feel & interpret the music, to add your own individual touches to the partnership. Some of us just want a fun bop to a nice tune. I don't know of anyone who goes dancing expecting a "perfect" dance everytime. It is the opportunity of having a good time on the dance floor that I think is the reason why people still enjoy partner dancing.

LilyB

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by LilyB
and his actual lead is ... come too late for me to follow properly/safely. This is a problem not confined to beginners only - it is equally apparent in some very experienced men.

And dancing with you is all the more of a pleasure because, whether you do it intentionally or not, you always let me know when I've led unclearly, or late. It's subtle feedback, but it's clear, and I find it tremendously helpful.

Chris

[Gary]

Originally posted by LilyB

In the above situation, [unclear lead] the only alternative for the lady (other than anticipating/leading ourselves) is to stop dancing altogether and stare at your partner, wondering what he wants us to do next. Surely that is not to be preferred.

Well I might be fooling myself, but I think that that's exactly what I'd prefer. Have any of you follows out there tried this? What happened?

[Graham]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I can only imagine that it is learned behaviour.

I think "yes and no". Often women develop this habit due to dancing with poor leads. But I'd also suggest that it is extremely common for complete beginners to do this. Many don't immediately grasp the concept of lead-and-follow, and simply learn the moves and execute them themselves. Of course perhaps this IS a learned behaviour from off the dance-floor (it's ridiculous to think a man would know what he was doing!! )

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Graham
I think "yes and no". Often women develop this habit due to dancing with poor leads. But I'd also suggest that it is extremely common for complete beginners to do this. Many don't immediately grasp the concept of lead-and-follow, and simply learn the moves and execute them themselves. Of course perhaps this IS a learned behaviour from off the dance-floor (it's ridiculous to think a man would know what he was doing!! )

I'm not talking about beginners (which does happen a lot, as you say), and I'm not talking about the occasional glitch that arises from a fumbled lead.

I'm talking in this instance about an intermediate dancer trying to wrestle me through a complicated move that she certainly didn't know, and making me **** it up completely by wrestling me in completely the wrong direction. Given that she hadn't even been in the class at the start, I thought it was a bit much.

Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.

It was an extreme example, but this sort of thing does happen quite a bit.

Another one is less common, but it's when someone in freestyle has anticipated to such an extent that the move has gone completely awry... and I just stop completely for a few moments to avoid that awful scrabble for hands. It amazes me when I stop, and the lady continues attempting to dance - sometimes for several seconds - before appearing to suddenly notice that I'm no longer doing stuff, and then she looks really surprised. I get the impression that whether I lead or not, she wouldn't notice.

I suppose it could just be me failing to lead nothing....

Chris

[JamesGeary]

Nerves, and the associated desire to rush through the move.
Laugh a bit and tell them anything is ok.

or

Need for control, an unwillingness to let someone else take charge.
Give them some rope and follow them for a bit.

or

High ratio of time spent doing classes to time spent doing freestyle (been learning choreography rather than following skills).
Just get them dancing more.

[Jon]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Need for control, an unwillingness to let someone else take charge.

Women wear the trousers off the dance floor. We cant let her wear them on the floor as well can we or we won't ever get to be in control

[Forte]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Very unusually for me, I murmured "no" quite firmly in her ear, and she then stopped fighting - and it all went swimmingly after that.


Chris

Oooh ChrisA...that quote made me come over all Mills and Boon swoon!!! You macho man, you!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Forte
Oooh ChrisA...that quote made me come over all Mills and Boon swoon!!! You macho man, you!

I was expecting to have to duck

Chris

[spindr]

The awful truth is that the leaders also come to rely on the followers anticipating.
I've a tendency to leak in the occasional lindy hop, or salsa move -- or lead the follower with their left hand, etc. -- and if I notice that my partner's attention is wandering / they are anticipating , I will throw in something other than current-modern-jive moves.

A friend of mine commented that she found it "challenging" to dance with me, because she had to keep concentrating.
To which the only possible reply at the time was: "Oh, so you end up sleeping, with all your other partners?"

SpinDr

P.S. She said "yes" and then realised...

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by spindr
The awful truth is that the leaders also come to rely on the followers anticipating.

Wrong !!

[Jon L]

I think I asked this question some time ago on ceroc London forum?

When dancing with someone I have never met. I will usually do two or three beginner moves but with maybe an extra in i.e. extra turn or travelling return to see how they react.

The problem stems from women who have been dancing say six months to a year and are Not naturals. They have seen variants of moves and think I'll steer the man in. Quite a lot of the time it is because they have danced with men who don't lead with clarity usually other beginner men. When in fact they need to dance with more experienced dancers or taxis.

The taxi's here play a key role here and should directly inform the woman not to do this under any circumstances while still being encouraging.

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Gary
Well I might be fooling myself, but I think that that's exactly what I'd prefer. Have any of you follows out there tried this? What happened?

I've had to stop a couple of times when things have gone beyond all reasonable hope of salvage.

I have had three responses:

i) It just gives me and the chap something to giggle about,

ii) the chap gets quite/very embarassed. This is most common when he doesn't know me personally, or if he's very serious about his dancing. That's why I try to keep going if I can...; and

iii) a minor tantrum! This was just the once, and from a very strange guy who most ladies at the venue refused to dance with (so perhaps not very representative, but still, he's out there, somewhere...)

I prefer response i) - and if everything goes humiliatingly pear-shaped I tend to remind my partner that's how new moves get invented!

[jivecat]

Originally posted by LilyB
On a more serious note, I personally find that I am very often forced to anticipate moves and/or lead myself because my partner has failed to lead the move that he intended clearly enough, and his actual lead is either non-existent, or too weak, or equivocal (could be any one of a number of moves), or has come too late for me to follow properly/safely.
LilyB

Having been told off by various partners for anticipating/leading I have tried really hard to train myself out of it. So thanks, Lily, for putting the ladies' side of the argument so succinctly. I am always reluctant to comment on leads that are less than perfect in case I offend someone -has anyone got any ideas on how to tactfully help a partner to make their leads clearer?

It seems to me that the possibility of equivocal leads should be stressed more in beginners classes e.g. some men don't realise that if they hold their hand too high the lady will probably begin to turn under it- a very common error of beginner leaders.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by jivecat
I am always reluctant to comment on leads that are less than perfect in case I offend someone -has anyone got any ideas on how to tactfully help a partner to make their leads clearer?

In my case, the key was realising that the problem lay with me, not with the ladies I was dancing with. I had a kind of "ok" dance once with someone, and came away with the impression that she wasn't a very good dancer.

A few minutes later I saw her dancing with someone else -- and she was awesome.

I realised that the reason the dance was mediocre was my fault, not hers. This was a bit of a Damascus Road experience for me, and led to my assuming from then on that if a dance went wrong, the fault was in my lead rather than the lady's follow.

A couple of workshops, but mostly a great deal of observation, and experimentation later, and I'm starting to feel hopeful that my leading is at long last starting to improve.

So, how to help? I would certainly like to be told about anything in my dancing that could be improved. I hate the idea that the lady might smile and say thank you at the end of the dance, while underneath thinking I was rubbish. The 64,000 dollar question is, of course, how many of the guys are equally happy to receive feedback?

Chris

[Amir]

Have advocated this often, and here would be a good place to repeat: Guys, take an oppertunity some time soon to learn to follow, and do it when ever you can.!

It is the most dis-orientating, dizzying and challenging experience you are likely to have! Especially at dark venues with moving lights!

It is also very difficult not to anticipate moves - almost any other movement throughout our conscious waking lives we direct ourselves. Following is neither natural or easy. I would say that taking over the lead is rather more natural than waiting to by lead.

Try to read the following sentence and do not finish it even in your head

"The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy..."

You probably immediately completed the sentence in your head and thought 'dog.' It could have been cat, stone or anything, but if you think you recognize something, you automatically complete it. It takes a lot of training and concentration not to.

In movement it is harder, because you have to commit your weight in a certain direction, and if you think you know where you're going, you're likely to find the quickest path there.


My hat off to all followers.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by amir_giles
Have advocated this often, and here would be a good place to repeat: Guys, take an oppertunity some time soon to learn to follow, and do it when ever you can.!

It is the most dis-orientating, dizzying and challenging experience you are likely to have! Especially at dark venues with moving lights!

Any suggestions for the best way of going about this? When taxiing if I get my opposite number in the beginners class we always swap roles and cause no little local amusement by both being crap, but I'm not sure many of the guys would be that glad to get me in the class.

How did the Trampster start off learning to be a follower, for instance?

Chris

PS Amir, is this the thin end of the wedge?

[Pammy]

Originally posted by ChrisA
How did the Trampster start off learning to be a follower, for instance?

I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time

Px

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pammy
I don't know, but I volunteer to try and lead you next time

Thanks Pamster, I'm up for it