What is meant by 'Musical Interpretation'?

[Boomer]

Originally posted by ChrisA
The first few stages of musical interpretation?
1. What's a break (and why does she keep looking annoyed at me)?
2. Damn.. there was another one
3. Woohoo, I can do this.
4. Ah. Oh dear. There, er, seems to be more to it than breaks
Chris, somewhere closer to 2 than 4, no idea about 5...

The above quote, and a convo with ChrisA started me thinking 'What exactly is meant when one talks about "Musical Interpretation" - so, 'What...?'

In my limited understanding of things MI currently means hitting the breaks and, if I'm familiar with a track, paddling like mad to find a move that illustrates a lyric. I know there's more, but as to what exactly I have no conscious idea.

P.S Franck and co, sorry if this is elsewhere as a thread/topic, but am pushed for time :sorry:

[Paul F]

By way of an example, last night while dancing to some of the slow blues stuff I tried slowing down familiar moves and putting in 'mini' breaks within the actual move.

Hard to explain in words but seemed to work pretty well.

I have tried to think of a way to describe musicality but realised it is again a completely subjective term. (Back to the issue of whether you should be 'judged' on musicality)

sorry, nothing to do with this thread.

[Gadget]

To me, it is matching movement to music: Not the moves themselves, but the execution of them.
A few things help with this;
- A ripple of ascending music goes well with an un-wrap or extension move; descending for smooth winding in of your partner.
- Smoothing out moves more during lyrics, and taking little steps or "style flourishes" during gaps and choruses.
- music building up to a loud croshendo {sp?} should have movements getting progressivly larger; and quieter sections closing down the moves.
- Accent points within the music should be matched with accent styling; eg to 'feel' the base pulse of a song, I might emphisise the beat during the moves.
- Sometimes follow a lead instrument or vocal in it's range; I might get more up-right with high notes and crouch lower with deeper ones.
- Occasionally I only move my partner to match the music, occasionally I only move myself.

Over all, it's more about listening to the music and feeling it: too much thought about it (while dancing) doesn't work.
There are methods of predicting where breaks will fall within a piece (David B has taught counting as a valid method) but personally I tend to just go with my instincts and listen to the music.
Hmmm... I also tend to miss a lot or miss-time a lot of moves - coincedence? (By miss-time, I mean that the break doesn't happens on an area of a move that I expected/wanted it to; I still make use of it, but not in the way I had planned a second before.)

[Mary]

Anybody do music and movement stuff at school? That was where I got my rudimentary ideas about musicality. Listening to how the music sounds and translating that into body shapes and movements. I guess a lot of us felt a bit of a prat at the time but it does make you listen to the music and it's various elements.

Although I can read music no 0ne needs to be able to do this in order to understand musicality (IMO) - I believe it's the ability to listen and feel.

M

[RobC]

Originally posted by Gadget
To me, it is matching movement to music: Not the moves themselves, but the execution of them.
...SNIP...
Over all, it's more about listening to the music and feeling it: too much thought about it (while dancing) doesn't work.

Exactly. Even a basic first move can be danced with 'interpretation'. I wouldn't know where to even start counting the number of subtle variations you can get out of a single move. It's a matter of feeling the characteristics and nuances in the music and then allowing your body to reflect them in the way you move.

And that is why musicality is so difficult to teach - how do you teach someone to listen to the music, let alone feel it. I wouldn't go as far as saying either you've got it or you haven't, but it's definitely not something that can be taught in a normal class. You would need more individual intention in either a smaller afternoon workshop or a one-on-one lesson.

[Chris]

Yes, I think musicality can be taught in a regular class but it needs a totally different approach. Many classes are devised on the basis of putting together moves and then (at best) adding style or technique. My own view is that this is only appropriate for beginners classes, and even then the foundation should be laid for what is to follow. A regular intermediate class can just as easily be planned around specific principles and the sequence of moves chosen appropriately. This is already not uncommon for workshops.

Listening to the music IMO involves both accuracy (specific warm-up exercises for hitting the beat are good) and comprehension. Comprehension can be taught using specific techniques as well - whether you group them under lateral thinking or kinetic imagery. Putting them into a regular intermediate class simply involves tightening up the format.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Mary
Anybody do music and movement stuff at school? That was where I got my rudimentary ideas about musicality. Listening to how the music sounds and translating that into body shapes and movements. I guess a lot of us felt a bit of a prat at the time but it does make you listen to the music and it's various elements.

Although I can read music no 0ne needs to be able to do this in order to understand musicality (IMO) - I believe it's the ability to listen and feel.

M

Me not being natuarly musical and deciding at school that music and movement was not "manly" (how stupid we are in our youth) had to rely on hard work and teachers who had a passion to teach me.

Nigel gave me a great insite some years ago with one of his workshops where he sat us down and broke down the construction of music. Where the changes are going to take place and how to predict music you have never heard before , something that has stuck with me ever since. I have now been enlightened with "bridges" and other technical stuff. I now know what James Brown was on about when he said "take it to the bridge".

I still look for the 8 or 12 construction, mostly it is in the back of my mind and I "feel" the arrival of that break, high point or change.

I can mostly pre-predict the music even in tracks I do not know, and the smile on the ladies face when you hit most of those spots (no rude comments please ) is fantastic.

Musicality can be taught, thankfully, in a land where moves are king (Aussie) I am guilty of keeping it simple, dancing with your partner and "the music is king" after all I believe you should be dancing to the music, whatever it is and making sure your partner has fun.

[Pete]

Suspect this is an incredibly basic question, but I've been wondering for ages: What is a 'Break'? And how do you hit them?

[RobC]

Originally posted by Pete
Suspect this is an incredibly basic question, but I've been wondering for ages: What is a 'Break'? And how do you hit them?

Ever played musical statues ?

To watch a crowd of intermediate dancer just starting to find out what breaks and musical interpretation is, it is very much like watching children playing musical statues. There will be pauses or stops in the music, often fitting into patterns of 8 or 12 bars, where suddenly everyone will 'freeze'

Once they progress a little further, they will realise that they don't actually have to stop dancing on the breaks in the music, but simply slow down, or change what they are doing subtley.

[Martin]

Originally posted by RobC
Ever played musical statues ?

To watch a crowd of intermediate dancer just starting to find out what breaks and musical interpretation is, it is very much like watching children playing musical statues. There will be pauses or stops in the music, often fitting into patterns of 8 or 12 bars, where suddenly everyone will 'freeze'

Once they progress a little further, they will realise that they don't actually have to stop dancing on the breaks in the music, but simply slow down, or change what they are doing subtley.

A little dip, sway or inflection can also produce a smile

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Pete
Suspect this is an incredibly basic question, but I've been wondering for ages: What is a 'Break'? And how do you hit them?

It might be basic, but if you've been dancing Ceroc for a while, it's one of the most fundamental questions you can ask if you want to improve your dancing.

A break, or any other accent for that matter, is a point in the music to which you have the opportunity to draw attention in your dancing.

If done well it adds the most amazing new dimension to the enjoyment of the dance - both for the dancer and the watcher.

An accent can be where the music actually stops for a second or so, before restarting, it can be a moment in the percussion, or in one of the instruments, even a key change. But typically there will be something in the music that will warn you of the impending arrival of the accent, and gives you the chance to plan something to do when it does.

It's not easy, in fact to start with it feels impossible, or it did to me, and it can be elusive even now - I'm a million miles from being at all expert.

Start by listening to the music - listen for phrases, breaks and other accents. The more you listen, the more you'll be able to recognise when they're coming, and gradually you'll find you can do something in the dance to respect them. Even making an effort to start moves at the beginning, rather than the middle, of phrases, makes a big difference to the feel of the dance.

The first time I actually did something (that wasn't an accident) to arrive at an appropriate place in a move at the same time as the break it was a real thrill. And it just gets better - and the people I dance with seem to enjoy it more, too.

Chris

[Pete]

Thanks for the insights and tips guys - there's clearly more to this Ceroc malarkey than meets the eye. I would dearly love to put a little 'more' into my dances as even I'm getting a little bored with endlessly going through my beginners moves. Thanks again for the tips - think the lesson for me is that I need to start listening to the music

[Gus]

{ODA Mode On}

Why is sum total of musical interpretation seemingly restricted to talking about breaks. Breaks are NOT musical interpretation ... as said before they are simply "Simon says Stop" Watch a dance floor and watch every Herbert freeze in their tracks ... WHERE THE H*LL IS THE INTERPRETATION???.

Listen to Amir or the like talk on the subject. It comes back to what dance is about, using your body to paint a picture that works with the music .... in the slower passages using more gentle movements, less pace, more circles etc. ... for the more vibrant parts, using speed, space ... creating dramatic stops without stopping by footwork, expressive arms and expressive looks ....

As the Oracle has pointed out elsewhere ... there is a huge dearth of musicla interpretation in the MJ scene ... but watch some the scenes out of Dirty Dancing to see what can be achieved.

{ODA Mode Off}

Phew .... now all thats been said I better work out what this ODA guy means by all the above Oracle .... any suggestions?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gus
Why is sum total of musical interpretation seemingly restricted to talking about breaks.

Er, it isn't - even in this short thread.

Breaks are NOT musical interpretation ... as said before they are simply "Simon says Stop" Watch a dance floor and watch every Herbert freeze in their tracks ... WHERE THE H*LL IS THE INTERPRETATION???.

Cobblers. Hitting the breaks just with a stop may not be advanced interpretation, but ODA mode or not, it seems pretty arrogant to me to suggest that it isn't about interpretation at all.

Surely you're not suggesting that respecting the breaks by learning to hear them coming, arranging to be in a suitable place in a move, and stopping on the break is no more interpretive than dancing blindly through them as if they weren't there at all?

Listen to Amir or the like talk on the subject. It comes back to what dance is about, using your body to paint a picture that works with the music .... in the slower passages using more gentle movements, less pace, more circles etc. ... for the more vibrant parts, using speed, space ... creating dramatic stops without stopping by footwork, expressive arms and expressive looks ....

All true, but if this had been rammed down my throat like this 18 months ago when I was on the point of giving up completely because I was so desperate for something more than moves in my dancing, I probably would have done.

At that time, I could no more have jumped to the moon than done all that.

It was, in fact, Amir, who taught a basic musicality class that I went to - and the first half of it consisted of playing a track with a completely regular and predictable break every 16 beats or so, getting people to freestyle and just stop on each break - wherever they were in the move they were dancing at the time.

Basic, doubtless; unimaginative, probably... but for people like me, obviously a mere amoeba in comparison with such as yourself, it was a hugely helpful way of starting to learn how to listen and make a start on dancing more musically. And I think I've improved a little since then.

ODA or not, I think encouraging people to take their first tentative steps into the world of dancing musically is much better than making the whole of it seem completely inaccessible.

Still, there's nothing quite like giving someone a good kicking just when they're thinking of getting themselves up...

Chris

[Daisy Chain]

Originally posted by Gus
[b]{ODA Mode On}


As the Oracle has pointed out elsewhere ... there is a huge dearth of musicla interpretation in the MJ scene ... but watch some the scenes out of Dirty Dancing to see what can be achieved.

Or watch any Torvill & Dean performance. I swear that they are not skating to taped music - it appears to me that their bodies are producing the music as they skate.

Pity they've retired, now we'll never find out what they could have done with Shaky

Daisy

PS Gus, will you be playing Shaky on Saturday?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Mode On}

Why is sum total of musical interpretation seemingly restricted to talking about breaks. Breaks are NOT musical interpretation ... as said before they are simply "Simon says Stop" Watch a dance floor and watch every Herbert freeze in their tracks ... WHERE THE H*LL IS THE INTERPRETATION???.

Listen to Amir or the like talk on the subject. It comes back to what dance is about, using your body to paint a picture that works with the music .... in the slower passages using more gentle movements, less pace, more circles etc. ... for the more vibrant parts, using speed, space ... creating dramatic stops without stopping by footwork, expressive arms and expressive looks ....

As the Oracle has pointed out elsewhere ... there is a huge dearth of musicla interpretation in the MJ scene ... but watch some the scenes out of Dirty Dancing to see what can be achieved.
{ODA Mode Off}

Hmm. Wouldn't it be nice if every Herbert actually did freeze in their tracks. My own experience of just about every dance that I've ever been to, is that at least 75% of the people will just carry on, as if nothing has happened!!

As what ChrisA said (although, perhaps slightly less antagonistically), it's all about taking small steps - starting off by hitting the breaks, but then by using the music to the full extent, and building up, as you build up in confidence and ability. One day, one perfect day, we'll all have wonderful musical interpretation. Or maybe not.

As for the people in Dirty Dancing, and other films, I'd agree that we'd all like to be like them. Of course, they are professionals who spend much more time than your average person has available in getting like that. It's great to have something to aspire to though (me, I'd get the DVD of Burn the Floor too (if you haven't already got it).

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp

As what ChrisA said (although, perhaps slightly less antagonistically)

I thought I was supposed to respond like that given the ODA tags...

Sorry, it touched a nerve.

Chris

[Mary]

Gus, what a brilliant example of ODA. And ChrisA responding so eloquently.

As Chris says using breaks is the starting point to introduce even the most un-musical minded person to the notion of musicality. Lots of teachers use that as an easily absorbed example - Amir, Nigel and some Ceroc teachers and lots of other people I'm sure. From there comes the progression to major and minor accents, exploring the complexities of the music - dancing to the rythm whilst also accenting the percussive elements at the same time, and phrasing (I'm still working on that - not easy when someone is leading continuous pretzel, tunnelly, baskety-reverse pedalling type thingys!!)

One of the appealing aspects of MJ is one can always keep exploring this musicality and how to express it. Well at the moment anyway.


M

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
ODA or not, I think encouraging people to take their first tentative steps into the world of dancing musically is much better than making the whole of it seem completely inaccessible.

Well said Chris, I'm sure for many people (moi?) there is practically no musicality in their dancing until someone points out what is happening in the music. The breaks are a good place to start, as pretty well everyone (?) can hear them. To avoid getting hung up on just this aspect, surely there aren't any teachers that are still doing musicality classes than only mention the breaks nowadays?

Greg

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
As what ChrisA said (although, perhaps slightly less antagonistically), it's all about taking small steps - starting off by hitting the breaks, but then by using the music to the full extent, and building up, as you build up in confidence and ability.

Ahem .... didnt realise I'd hit such a nerve:sorry

The point I was making, and for once I thought I was fairly clear ... was that breaks are not the ONLY type of interpreatation ... though that is the way they can be discussed ... in the real world as well as in the Forum. I disagree that breaks are the ONLY was to start ... I've seen many dancers start by using more expressive hands and changing the moves to suit the beat. Of course, I totaly agree with starting in stages..... I never said that anyone jumps straight into advanecd.

And Chris ... please read what I said more carefully ... I dont put myself down as an interpreative dancer ... my dance (in)ability has nothing to do with the validity or otherwise of my point. There are many ways forward in dance ... breaks/hesitation are but one.