How would you judge?

[DavidB]

There has been some discussion about competitions including the recent Bristol one, and in particular the judging. I don't think anyone should question the judges' actual decision - it is final. But one of the topics of the discussion is knowing in any future competitions what the judges are looking for.

So what would you look for? Four questions (and my answers in blue)

What do you believe are the different elements that can be judged?
Timing, technique, teamwork, musical interpretation, floorcraft (ie not hitting anyone), variety of moves, performance, lead-and-follow, enjoyment, style

Which are the most important of these elements, and which are the least important?
Some things I would expect - dancing in time, not getting in other couples' way, and abiding by the rules. I would expect more musical interpretation and variation in the timing in advanced divisions, rather than more moves. Style and performance wouldn't be as important as technique.

Is there anything that can't be judged that makes a person good to dance with?
Feel (of the connection), personal hygiene

Do you really care? (I'm not being flippant. If it is a 'fun' competition, and 'taking part is more important than winning', is the judging that important?)
Yes - if I was competing

But as I don't compete seriously, I don't really care who wins any competition. I just find it interesting to know what other people look for in deciding who is a good dancer.

David

[filthycute]

Ok i've just finished writing an "i don't care" bit in another thread, and i won't pretend i have the foggiest what it's all about.

ok i know a little....only look stupid

the only thing i can pick up on from all the various discussions is that there is no set rules. With all the controversy surrounding the judges and what they're looking for in winning dancers, you'd think there would be someone just dying to jump in with the 3 inch thick rule book( which applies to everyone no matter how many people drop your name). With ceroc being all strict and that(??) i really expected someone to get on the defensive and put a few things straight.....obviously not.
Line dance competitions give all the competitors huge rule books to comply with. Everyone knows whats what and don't have to wait till they make a mistake before they actually know it was a mistake.

is there a rule book available to competitors??

Like i said in another thread, i don't really care but every competition thread always sounds the same....Well to me it does anyway. Everyone's going round in circles because nobody can seem to explain what the hell the rules are.

come to think of it....nobody can explain crop circles neither....strange
this isn't a subject i want to get too involved in but since i couldn't sleep thought i might aswell put my tuppence worth in

filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by filthycute
is there a rule book available to competitors??

To date the main rules, in the UK, for Jive dancing have been;

primarily a focus on musical interpretation over moves
no airsteps
must be evidence of lead and follow/no blatent choreography

Ceroc also (used to) state that drops, though not illegal, would not score.

The same situation permeates all competitions, no competitior seems to know whta they actually have to do to win! Hopefully Scott will be able to pull of this miracle and find a wasy of communicationg this.

Must admit, when it comes to rules and guidence for something as open as dance I think less is definitely more.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Gus


Must admit, when it comes to rules and guidence for something as open as dance I think less is definitely more.

oh yeah, of course. we don't want to be bogged down by a billion rules. but i think it's strange that no one knows what they are. some do's and don'ts and a few guidelines stuck in a booklet would be helpful to competitors. maybe not so much for the more experienced dancers but the less experienced/confident dancers would probably benefit from it. This is my first competition and all i know about rules is the couple of things jotted in my application form and what i read on here, which is basically what everyone "thinks" the rules are.
Ah well, lets hope the poor sod thats get me in lucky dip knows what he's doing.....i don't

have fun go mad


filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by filthycute


Ah well, lets hope the poor sod thats get me in lucky dip knows what he's doing.....i don't

If that poor sod knew what he was doing he would be taking valium before taking you on the dancefloor

ONLY KIDDING! .....getting back on thread.....

The main thing for all dancers to do is, as Dave has said, to dance to the music, DON'T do airsteps and cut the drops and flash moves to only those that suit the beat and the feel of the music. From a dancers point of view what more can you ask?

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Gus


If that poor sod knew what he was doing he would be taking valium before taking you on the dancefloor

he'd be taking more than valium!!!! jeez i bet i've scared a good few Englishmen already...with the help of Gus
Cheers mate, just say what you feel



ONLY KIDDING! .....getting back on thread.....

The main thing for all dancers to do is, as Dave has said, to dance to the music, DON'T do airsteps and cut the drops and flash moves to only those that suit the beat and the feel of the music. From a dancers point of view what more can you ask?

ok i'm assuming your directing all this (very useful i might add ) info at people who are capable of doing the fore mentioned. ie: do nice moves that are fitting for the music, hit beats and feel the music. i mean i've seen a couple of people out there and wondered if they could even HEAR the music!!
ok i'm not getting serious on this subject, like i said i'm not really worried about it.

i only wanted to know if there was set rules, and if there was a booklet of do's and don'ts to aid the first timers
not everyone comes on the forum and gets the chance to pick up the words of wisdom from you and David.

that was a serious comment by the way.....you do actually make a lot of sense.....sometimes

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
i only wanted to know if there was set rules, and if there was a booklet of do's and don'ts to aid the first timers

Hi Mel,

Good discussion going on here (and you should really get more sleep!).
Each competitor will receive a set of rules pertaining to their category. These rules include some of the above, but it is a fairly short document as the idea is to keep it simple!

As for what the judges will be looking for, it will depend on the category of course, in the Advanced section, technique and musical interpretation as well as innovation will be more important than say the Lucky Dip, where the rapport you establish with your partner and the way you are able to respond to each other is the most important...

Once the full team of judges is selected, we will have a meeting to discuss such issues, so keep all your thoughts coming so I can take them with me!

Franck.

[filthycute]

hehehe i knew if i kept blethering enough i'd actually say something right!!
if i have any more mental thoughts i'll be sure to keep you informed.
as far as sleep goes....hmmm? think i should search for apartner "must have insomnia and willing to practice during the night "

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
as far as sleep goes....hmmm? think i should search for apartner "must have insomnia and willing to practice during the night "

I would have applied, but it would have been off topic!
Whoops :sorry

To come back on track, Ceroc is all about sharing our enjoyment of dancing, and giving everyone a good feeling about how they dance. It is not about laying down standards as to what makes a good dancer (and by definition what makes a bad one ).
Many dance classes cater to a small group of their dancers and create cliquey elites :reallymad I would rather this did not happen with Ceroc.

For the competition, we will have to award marks and select winners, but I would hope this will be based on how much they enjoy dancing, and how they are opening new concepts for all of us to explore...

Franck.

[John S]

Just a thought on the Lucky Dip section. In all the events I have been to, what really seems to matter when it comes to getting on the podium is that the better the MAN, the better the chance of success.

I guess that follows the general pattern of Ceroc, and maybe every male-led dance, where it is very difficult for the standard of the couple to be higher than that of the man. So a really good male lead can bring out the best in his partner and even raise her standard, but a really good lady can't do much if the guy is just content to do YoYos.
(EG, Viktor could win with anyone, Lydia's chances would depend on who she got.)

This is maybe more of a problem for the intermediate-standard men, though - a half-decent lady dancer who may not win in an open class can get lucky and draw a superb male lead who allows her to shine, but the converse isn't true. Guess that's why it's Lucky Dip!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by John S
Just a thought on the Lucky Dip section. In all the events I have been to, what really seems to matter when it comes to getting on the podium is that the better the MAN, the better the chance of success.

I guess that follows the general pattern of Ceroc, and maybe every male-led dance, where it is very difficult for the standard of the couple to be higher than that of the man. So a really good male lead can bring out the best in his partner and even raise her standard, but a really good lady can't do much if the guy is just content to do YoYos.
(EG, Viktor could win with anyone, Lydia's chances would depend on who she got.)

Hi John - could I put in a thought here? I used to think exactly the same as you, ie that the standard of woman's dance depended very much on how good or bad the man was. But now I'm beginning to think that there's a lot a woman can do to influence things.

Even if she's being lead into the same move time and time again she can do it with a lot of style, she can change the way dances it each time, switch between single and double spins, etc, and she can subtly alter the timing, ie delaying catching the man's hand after a spin so he has no choice but to wait until the next beat. (Don't you think, or am I talking complete rubbish here?) I reckon a good woman can make a man look good. And, basically, I'm sure Lydia would stand an excellent chance of winning, no matter who she was dancing with (although we are talking EXCEPTIONAL when we're talking Lydia!).

Accepted that, if the man's a very bad lead and constantly throws the woman into confusion, she wouldn't have much chance. My pet hate - more than ANYTHING else - has to be men (thankfully few!) who force women into a move ... I mean, when a woman thinks she's being led into a particular move and the man has a different idea, he forceably stops her progress to push her into the move he originally intended. In those situations - whoever's at fault - I think it's nice if the man just accepts things didn't go to plan and alters his move to go with the flow.

But, then, maybe this is too female a perpective - it's probably harder than I think for a leader to change his mind and think of a suitable alternative when a woman's not going where he wants!!
Rachel

[DavidB]

The idea of a 3-inch rule book for a Jive competition is as scary as having no rules at all.

I would still have to be convinced of the need for rules on anything beyond time limits, restrictions on certain types of move, and whether it is choreographed or freestyle. The problem with rules is that there is usually some 'penalty' for breaking them. You don't want to be disqualified for doing a move instead if hitting a break.

(I personally don't like anything that says it has to be a particular style of dancing, or setting a percentage on the amount of that style that has to be included. You then have to start writing definitions of exactly what is Modern Jive, and assign someone the job of checking each couple.)

I think filthycute's idea of guidelines for competitors is a great idea. That would be the place for saying what what the judges are looking for, or how each heat will be run, or where any results will be listed.

David

[DavidB]

Originally posted by John S
Just a thought on the Lucky Dip section. In all the events I have been to, what really seems to matter when it comes to getting on the podium is that the better the MAN, the better the chance of success.

I thing an advanced man and a beginner lady have a better chance than a beginner man and an advanced lady. But both would be beaten by a couple of good intermediates. In the Bristol competition the main thing about each couple in the final was that they were balanced.

I don't see a problem with this, unless it stops beginners entering.

David

[filthycute]

Originally posted by DavidB
The idea of a 3-inch rule book for a Jive competition is as scary as having no rules at all.

yeah i got a little over excited with the rule book. maybe not quite 3 inches

I would still have to be convinced of the need for rules on anything beyond time limits, restrictions on certain types of move, and whether it is choreographed or freestyle.

That would be the place for saying what what the judges are looking for, or how each heat will be run, or where any results will be listed

David

are you running to be editor of the "rules and regs" book?

you'd do well actually.

filthycute x x

[John S]

Originally posted by Rachel
there's a lot a woman can do to influence things.

So .... no change there, then!

Originally posted by Rachel
And, basically, I'm sure Lydia would stand an excellent chance of winning, no matter who she was dancing with (although we are talking EXCEPTIONAL when we're talking Lydia!).

I do agree with you, Rachel, there's no doubt the better the woman is, the better the standard of the couple will be. And at one level I think it would be wonderful to draw the likes of Lydia in the Lucky Dip - but what a battering the sensitive male ego would take if we went out first round!!!!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by John S
And at one level I think it would be wonderful to draw the likes of Lydia in the Lucky Dip - but what a battering the sensitive male ego would take if we went out first round!!!!

You're dead right - in my opinion, the better the partner you draw, the braver you have to be. I know it's all for fun but, oh, the pressure of expectation! Myself, I would just turn into a quivering mass of jelly and wouldn't be able to move my legs for trying ...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by filthycute
are you running to be editor of the "rules and regs" book?

No way (Tried to find a 'terrified' smilie - 'eek' was the closest I could get!) I wouldn't want the abuse.

It is the Scottish Ceroc competition. I'm not Scottish - either by birth or by residence. I'm not a Ceroc teacher or franchise holder. I've only ever danced in Edinburgh once! The final say on any rules, judging guidance, music etc should lie with Scot and Franck.

The only reason I keep going on about it is that I would like to go to a competition where people moaned about something else, and not the poor judges or the DJ.

David

[filthycute]

Originally posted by DavidB
It is the Scottish Ceroc competition. I'm not Scottish - either by birth or by residence. I'm not a Ceroc teacher or franchise holder. I've only ever danced in Edinburgh once!
David

WOW!! i know we Scottish are nuts but i've never seen anyone trying not to be Scottish quite so desperately

We do hope you and your good lady will be joining us for the occassion. there's fun to be had.....and we're the best at it

everybody wants a piece of the action

filthycute x x

[Emma]

Originally posted by DavidB


The only reason I keep going on about it is that I would like to go to a competition where people moaned about something else, and not the poor judges or the DJ.

David

...isn't that a bit like wishing Londoners would stop moaning about the trains?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by filthycute
i've never seen anyone trying not to be Scottish quite so desperately

I'm a Yorkshireman - why would I want to be anything else?